# Dark Rift Delay 1uF caps - ceramic?



## lcipher3 (Sep 25, 2020)

There are a boatload of 1uF coupling caps in the Dark Rift Delay - why the small package footprint?  It pretty much dictates ceramic - which I have but....  Is it better to try to cram a 1uF film in there?  Or doesn't it matter?


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## Mcknib (Sep 25, 2020)

They'll be MLCC 1uf


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## lcipher3 (Sep 25, 2020)

Mcknib said:


> They'll be MLCC 1uf



Right... why?   Coming from HiFi you would never do this.... is it just packaging, cost or ???


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## Mcknib (Sep 25, 2020)

lcipher3 said:


> Right... why?   Coming from HiFi you would never do this.... is it just packaging, cost or ???



The silkscreen looks like a box film cap but 1uf film are pretty big with guitar effects you don't really need HiFi quality and MLCC are nice and small and fit the bill for the job

With guitar effects you'll find film are preferable in the audio path because they tend to have lower noise, distortion and last longer than electrolytic caps

Albeit as you know any cap of the correct voltage and value can be used and value required and availability is another consideration


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## Chas Grant (Sep 25, 2020)

A 1uF 50V box film cap will fit in the footprint. WIMA makes one, although its a little pricey. If its in the signal path and a small footprint I use them. Here's the WIMA part number MKS2B041001C00MF00 . I know Mouser carries them, if you use a different large distributor, they should have them also.


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## lcipher3 (Sep 26, 2020)

Chas Grant said:


> A 1uF 50V box film cap will fit in the footprint. WIMA makes one, although its a little pricey. If its in the signal path and a small footprint I use them. Here's the WIMA part number MKS2B041001C00MF00 . I know Mouser carries them, if you use a different large distributor, they should have them also.



Thanks - yeah i have a few of those - they're 3.5mm wide vs the pcb footprint 2.5mm so it's a tight fit and there are two smooshed between some others that I would have to get creative with.  Maybe one on the other side of the board.

just wondering what the diff would be between MLCC and film - they ARE in the signal path.  Does ceramic "sound" different and would you be able to tell?  Or would it be quieter?


Not sure what parameters "matter" aside from capacitance, but:  (measured with a cheapo meter tester)

MLCC:   Vloss = 0.2%,  ESR=12 ohms, 1.020 uF
Kemet box Film (larger):  Vloss = 0%, ESR = 6.8 ohms, 1.061 uF
Wima box Film (3.5mm):  Vloss = 0.0%,  ESR=8.1 ohms, 1.109 uF


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## Chas Grant (Sep 26, 2020)

The only one that truly "matters" is capacitance. A 1uF capacitor is a 1uF capacitor as far as the circuit is concerned. There are a few reasons to use the different types of caps.  The box film have the least electrical noise associated with them, that's why you try to use them in the signal path. If it calls for a cap larger than 1uF, that's where you start seeing the electrolytic caps come in, this is more due to the physical size of the caps above 1uF. You may see up to a 3.3 uF box film cap called for but this is rare. Once you go below the nF range into the pF range, these are normally ceramic caps. Most DIYer's use MLCC caps in this range. MLCC are ceramic, just a higher quality than the normal looking ceramic caps you see in mass produced circuits. The reason the mass produced circuits use the normal looking ceramic caps so much, is purely cost. They are very cheap when you buy them by the boatload!
   Thought I should also mention tantalum caps, you can use these in place of an electrolytic cap if its in the signal chain. They are polarity sensitive so make sure you check them, and they have less electrical noise associated with them.


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## lcipher3 (Sep 26, 2020)

Chas Grant said:


> The *only one that truly "matters" is capacitance*. A 1uF capacitor is a 1uF capacitor as far as the circuit is concerned. There are a few reasons to use the different types of caps.  *The box film have the least electrical noise associated with them, that's why you try to use them in the signal path. *



So it's not just capacitance - it's electrical noise.  So again - probably overthinking this - MLCC or film?  If there is "less noise" in film why not (aside from cost and size) use them? And so what have a "too small" footprint?

Or is MLCC vs film "electrical noise" not much of an issue in guitar effects (or this particular one) even if it is (as this is) in the signal path?

It seems like this was setup for MLCC and I'm wondering why or if it matters if I would gain anything by cramming in the film ones or mounting to the "back" of the board.


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## Robert (Sep 26, 2020)

The parts list spec's MLCC because of size, no other reason.   If you have a 1uF film that will fit (or can make it fit) feel free.

With that said, a large percentage of the pedals I see these days have ceramic SMD caps all over the signal path.  I'm not talking Joyo and Biyang...  This is in highly regarded pedals by big name builders.


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## lcipher3 (Sep 26, 2020)

Robert said:


> The parts list spec's MLCC because of size, no other reason.   If you have a 1uF film that will fit (or can make it fit) feel free.
> 
> With that said, a large percentage of the pedals I see these days have ceramic SMD caps all over the signal path.  I'm not talking Joyo and Biyang...  This is in highly regarded pedals by big name builders.



Thanks - I'm just going to use the MLCC.   Especially since this is not exactly a "hifi" type of pedal like a compressor or super clean boost or anything.


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## Robert (Sep 26, 2020)

I was going to say, any negative effects of ceramics (assuming there was a negative impact) would likely be masked by that PT2399 anyway.


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## lcipher3 (Sep 26, 2020)

Robert said:


> I was going to say, any negative effects of ceramics (assuming there was a negative impact) would likely be masked by that PT2399 anyway.


My thoughts exactly


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## Dali (Sep 26, 2020)

Robert said:


> This, is in highly regarded pedals by big name builders.



Big name like @Chuck D. Bones , @Barry or @Nostradoomus ?


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## Barry (Sep 26, 2020)

Dali said:


> Big name like @Chuck D. Bones , @Barry or @Nostradoomus ?


My name shouldn't be in the company of those real guru's


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## Mcknib (Sep 26, 2020)

Barry said:


> My name shouldn't be in the company of those real guru's



I joined this forum a while ago but hadn't been active on it

You very quickly suss who's knowledgeable and helpful and you're in amongst it I'm afraid Barry 

So yer just gonna have to accept your status, get the t shirt and wear it with pride my man

The guru thug life can sometimes be hard I've heard


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## Barry (Sep 26, 2020)

Mcknib said:


> I joined this forum a while ago but hadn't been active on it
> 
> You very quickly suss who's knowledgeable and helpful and you're in amongst it I'm afraid Barry
> 
> ...


I may get lucky at spotting an assembly issue or bad solder joints, but I have no where near the understanding of how all this stuff works as guys like you and Chuck and many more here, I'm an A/C voltage guy so I can read schematics and DC took some getting used to, but audio paths are still a work in progress for me


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## Mcknib (Sep 27, 2020)

Barry said:


> I may get lucky at spotting an assembly issue or bad solder joints, but I have no where near the understanding of how all this stuff works as guys like you and Chuck and many more here, I'm an A/C voltage guy so I can read schematics and DC took some getting used to, but audio paths are still a work in progress for me



You share your experience and knowledge you've gathered in a pleasant manner like a lot of the members here 

Like most folks I'm on on a lot of DIY forums but to me the fact people share info is what makes the DIY community great 

Me I can tell you certain simple things like how a 3PDT works but don't ask me to tell you how a multi pole multi throw rotary connects my head'll explode!


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