# Parentheses Fuzz Capacitor Question.



## Diatrive (Aug 15, 2019)

I am building the Parentheses Fuzz pedal and I am confused. 
Capacitor C22 is listed in the components as 1u but on the PCB it is a double box.
Anyone have any insight?


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## Bobbyd67 (Aug 15, 2019)

Its a flim cap not a electro one


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## Nostradoomus (Aug 15, 2019)

1uf film caps are rather big


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## Diatrive (Aug 15, 2019)

That they are. In general though aren't Xu caps electro? And Xn film caps? Not being snotty, just want to make sure I get it right.
Also there are many other 1u rounds caps in the build. ie C20 is 1u but electro and all there are 1n for film. 

Other than the markings on the PCB how would you know that 'this' 1u is a film cap but all the others are electro even though both are 1u?


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## Nostradoomus (Aug 15, 2019)

In general yes but I just go by what’s printed on the board.


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## Chuck D. Bones (Aug 16, 2019)

I think this points up an opportunity for improvement in the build docs: list the capacitor type.  The Arachnid board does this in the case of the MLCC capacitors.  Of course, we are always free to upgrade cap types as long as they will fit.

BTW, the dead giveaway for electrolytic capacitors is the polarity mark on the board.


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## Sasan (Aug 20, 2019)

Chuck D. Bones said:


> I think this points up an opportunity for improvement in the build docs: list the capacitor type.  The Arachnid board does this in the case of the MLCC capacitors.  Of course, we are always free to upgrade cap types as long as they will fit.
> 
> BTW, the dead giveaway for electrolytic capacitors is the polarity mark on the board.


Hey, new here. One question: the build doc says MLCC...but this doesn't necessarily mean it has to be SMDs, right?


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## Nostradoomus (Aug 20, 2019)

No there are through hole MLCCs (usually the little yellow ones)


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## Sasan (Aug 20, 2019)

Nostradoomus said:


> No there are through hole MLCCs (usually the little yellow ones)


Thanks!!!


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## Chuck D. Bones (Aug 20, 2019)

Mine are blue, I hope they sound ok!  I used to think that MLCC stood for Multi Layer Chip Capacitor, but it's actually Multi Layer Ceramic Capacitor.  
A couple things to note about MLCCs:
- MLCCs are good in switching power supplies and high-speed digital circuits where performance at megahertz frequencies is important.  They are not particularly well suited for audio circuits.  
- MLCCs rated for <100V have reliability issues because the ceramic layers are so thin that they can develop shorts.  

For my first Arachnid (Octagon) build, I followed the BOM.  The ones I got from DigiKey (FK24X7S2A105K) are rated for 100V. Next time around, I'll use film for all of the ones in the audio path.


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## Anotherpedalbuild (Aug 22, 2019)

Diatrive said:


> That they are. In general though aren't Xu caps electro? And Xn film caps? Not being snotty, just want to make sure I get it right.
> Also there are many other 1u rounds caps in the build. ie C20 is 1u but electro and all there are 1n for film.
> 
> Other than the markings on the PCB how would you know that 'this' 1u is a film cap but all the others are electro even though both are 1u?


The electro spaces usually have a square eyelet and a round eyelet, and a circular outline and a + - polarity marking. Some pcbs have a bipolar cap with a circular pcb outline. Generally, if you have a box outline, it will be a poly box or film cap (63v or 100v rating are generally good) unless it is less than 1nf (e.g. 100pf, 47pf etc.) If there's a schematic, electrolytic caps have a distinctive -I(- or -)I- marking as opposed to a non polarised cap which looks like -II- on the schematic. Please excuse me if these are things you already know.


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## Diatrive (Aug 23, 2019)

Thanks! for more clarification. I just never knew you could have different types with the same value. I had just never saw a uf in a box film.


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## SteveScott (Aug 30, 2019)

Chuck D. Bones said:


> Mine are blue, I hope they sound ok!  I used to think that MLCC stood for Multi Layer Chip Capacitor, but it's actually Multi Layer Ceramic Capacitor.
> A couple things to note about MLCCs:
> - MLCCs are good in switching power supplies and high-speed digital circuits where performance at megahertz frequencies is important.  They are not particularly well suited for audio circuits.
> - MLCCs rated for <100V have reliability issues because the ceramic layers are so thin that they can develop shorts.
> ...


1UF 50V MULTILAYER MONOLITHIC CERAMIC CAPACITOR

Is this the same thing?


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## Nostradoomus (Aug 30, 2019)

Yes. Often times nowadays they will use MLCC as a designation for SMD ceramic capacitors and Monolithic as through hole versions. Just don’t get monolithic and tantalum caps confused as tantalum are polarized!


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## zgrav (Aug 30, 2019)

I don't recall anyone having problems using MLCC caps in audio circuits.  I haven't had any issues with them.


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## Chuck D. Bones (Aug 30, 2019)

For sure ceramic caps have the potential to color the sound.  Some pedal builders use them for that very purpose.  Me, I want my capacitors to be as transparent as possible.  It's really a matter of personal taste.  The reliability issue for ceramic caps rated <100V is real.  It may only affect a small percentage of the parts, but I've seen cross-sections of caps where the metal layers grew whiskers thru the ceramic dielectric.


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## Nostradoomus (Aug 30, 2019)

I always make sure to buy C0G or NP0, class 1 all the way baby


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## K Pedals (Aug 30, 2019)

Nostradoomus said:


> I always make sure to buy C0G or NP0, class 1 all the way baby


Where do you get em from??
You got a link?¿


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## Robert (Aug 30, 2019)

I know there are plenty of discussions about why ceramics shouldn't be used in the audio path, with all sorts of fancy simulations and frequency-vs-dc bias graphs, etc etc... but the _majority_ of the SMD boards I'm seeing in the past two years are almost 100% ceramics. 

There are still some that use through-hole or SMD film, but those are becoming more and more rare.

Disclaimer: Call me hardheaded... I'm just not a fan of simulations.    They have their application, but the number of threads that have been derailed because a simulation "proved" that a schematic _couldn't possibly _be accurate, only to find out that it was, just discourages me from sim discussions.


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## Nostradoomus (Aug 30, 2019)

I get mine from DigiKey. I’ve gravitated towards quality not quantity in my builds lately, I’d rather have 10 quality caps than 100 spotty ones.


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## K Pedals (Aug 30, 2019)

Nostradoomus said:


> I get mine from DigiKey. I’ve gravitated towards quality not quantity in my builds lately, I’d rather have 10 quality caps than 100 spotty ones.


Yeah I feel the same way...


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## Chuck D. Bones (Aug 31, 2019)

Robert said:


> Disclaimer: Call me hardheaded... I'm just not a fan of simulations.    They have their application, but the number of threads that have been derailed because a simulation "proved" that a schematic _couldn't possibly _be accurate, only to find out that it was, just discourages me from sim discussions.



I hear ya.  Simulations have to be grounded in reality.  Without test data to back them up, simulations, or any other kind of circuit analysis, are questionable.

A discussion of SMT vs thru-hole is a topic for another day.


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## Robert (Aug 31, 2019)

I'm totally fine with simulations to determine if a particular circuit or fragment "works",   where I lose interest is when we start discussing the tonality based on some single-line visual graphs.   

My comment about SMD/through-hole was more focused on the use of ceramics.     Not opening _that_ can of worms.


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## RobertJay (Sep 16, 2020)

I just happened to see this and actually have no idea what capacitor is being referred to as MLCC. google search brings up a Monolithic Ceramic Disc, but also says Multi Layered Ceramic Disc. Do these builds want the small disc ? or the little box? I've only used the small discs for pf values. a 1uf MLCC? Can anyone advise?


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## K Pedals (Sep 16, 2020)

1uF 50V Multilayer Monolithic Ceramic Capacitor
					

Tayda Electronics - Get It Fast - Same Day Shipping




					www.taydaelectronics.com


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## Chuck D. Bones (Sep 16, 2020)

*M*ulti-*L*ayer *C*eramic *C*apacitor.

I buy these:
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tdk-corporation/FK24X7S2A105K/445-FK24X7S2A105K-ND/2815452

50V MLCCs are not as reliable as 100V because the ceramic layers are so thin on the 50V parts that they frequently contain microscopic cracks that can develop into shorts.

Avoid disk ceramic capacitors, they can be noisy and unreliable.


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## lcipher3 (Sep 16, 2020)

Opinions on Military, MIL-PRF-39014, CKR05    ??
I know they aren't C0G or NP0 (BX temp coefficient)  - I have thousands of these I inherited from when some of our RD labs shut down.


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## Chuck D. Bones (Sep 16, 2020)

I have some I "inherited" also.  They're pretty good for ceramic caps.  Everything from tanks to satellites were built with MIL-PRF-39014 in them.  They are no longer the preferred ceramic cap for hi-rel applications.  Because they can be noisy & microphonic, I avoid using them in pedals.


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## Mcknib (Sep 16, 2020)

Nostradoomus said:


> I get mine from DigiKey. I’ve gravitated towards quality not quantity in my builds lately, I’d rather have 10 quality caps than 100 spotty ones.



Yeah defo agree with that quality over quantity

Story of my life! sadly I'd prefer it the other way round in some departments......

And before anybody comments

My bank account I mean!


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