# PCB Ground Plane question....



## MichaelW (Aug 21, 2022)

So I built a Celestial drive earlier last week and it didn't work....(becoming a theme lately....!)

I was just beginning to troubleshoot and I found the problem but I'm a bit confused as to why.

I have no continuity between the ground pads of the board itself.  (See pic below).

Continuity is good downstream of whatever is connected to those pads (e.g., jack sleeves, DC jack, and 3PDT board)

With my limited understanding of how PCB's are made and how the ground plane works, I can't see how anything I did in my build could cause this.

There's been no re-work of the board so I didn't murder it (like I typically do). All the original solder joints look good and there's no visible defects in the board.

Is this a board defect? Or is there possibly something I did in populating the board that would cause this?

TIA!!


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## Robert (Aug 21, 2022)

Shoot me a picture of your PCB.


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## Bricksnbeatles (Aug 21, 2022)

No spokes? Radio


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## Robert (Aug 21, 2022)

Bricksnbeatles said:


> No spokes? Radio



Spokes are part of the ground plane so they wouldn't show up in that particular preview image, but that's what I'm wondering...


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## MichaelW (Aug 21, 2022)

I have spokes on my Trek 17 speed......


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## Bricksnbeatles (Aug 21, 2022)

Robert said:


> Spokes are part of the ground plane so they wouldn't show up in that particular preview image, but that's what I'm wondering...


Yeah I know— I just worded my question to see if there were spikes on his actual PCB poorly all for the sake of a reference to a shitty 1950s joke lol


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## fig (Aug 21, 2022)

ECs are backwards.


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## MichaelW (Aug 21, 2022)

fig said:


> ECs are backwards.


Well crap......FigWhacker's still on the case.....


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## Robert (Aug 21, 2022)

fig said:


> ECs are backwards.



They're correct, it's a revised layout.


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## Bricksnbeatles (Aug 21, 2022)

MichaelW said:


> Well crap......FigWhacker's still on the case.....


Clock everything you see 
Little things might matter later 
At the start of the end of history


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## Robert (Aug 21, 2022)

I can't tell from the pic, but like bricks mentioned, do you see "spokes" around the ground pads?

Like this:




I had an issue with a JLCPCB order recently, trying to determine if this one was involved in the batch....   I was _hoping_ there'd be a batch number on the PCB but unfortunately not.

On a few occasions JLCPCB has taken it upon themselves to make modifications to Gerber files after they're submitted... and almost every time their modifications have broken something.     I have an entire batch of PCBs here now where they decided to move the breaktabs on a panel for no good reason, and because of where they relocated them you can't separate the PCBs without breaking off a chunk of the board.    

I don't have this issue with any other fabricator.


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## MichaelW (Aug 21, 2022)

fig said:


> ECs are backwards.


Yah that wasn't it.....


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## fig (Aug 21, 2022)

Sorry Michael. I figged it up again. 😫


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## Robert (Aug 21, 2022)

That pic answered my question though, the spokes are missing from the ground plane....  can you show me the bottom side of that same capacitor?


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## MichaelW (Aug 21, 2022)

Robert said:


> I can't tell from the pic, but like bricks mentioned, do you see "spokes" around the ground pads?
> 
> Like this:
> View attachment 31046
> ...


I can't tell.....


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## Robert (Aug 21, 2022)

I can show you how to fix it, but it's not going to be pretty....   Give me just a bit so I can check the other PCBs in the bin. 

It looks like you've ordered two of these in the past month?   If you haven't already, don't build the other one yet.

Actually scratch that, the other one hasn't been shipped yet.  Good deal.


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## MichaelW (Aug 21, 2022)

Robert said:


> I can show you how to fix it, but it's not going to be pretty....   Give me just a bit so I can check the other PCBs in the bin.
> 
> It looks like you've ordered two of these in the past month?   If you haven't already, don't build the other one yet.
> 
> Actually scratch that, the other one hasn't been shipped yet.  Good deal.


Ok here's the back side of the E-cap I removed.





Yah, I ordered a second Celestial board since I figured I messed something up.  😄


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## Robert (Aug 21, 2022)

MichaelW said:


> Yah, I ordered a second Celestial board since I figured I messed something up.  😄



I don't think you messed anything up.   I'll refund that and we'll get it taken care of, give me just a bit to look into this.


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## Robert (Aug 21, 2022)

Here's an example of what they wanted to do to the Flock panel recently...

They contacted me saying their engineers wanted to add another breaktab at this location to "increase stability"...

Now I'm no engineer, but what do _you _think is going to happen to that breakout board when you attempt to snap off the tab right beside that column of holes?    It's going to live up to it's name, that's what.


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## fig (Aug 21, 2022)

Robert said:


> Here's an example of what they wanted to do to the Flock panel recently...
> 
> They contacted me saying their engineers wanted to add another breaktab at this location to "increase stability"...
> 
> ...


I’d ask the remaining vendors if they’d like to pick up the slack.


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## Harry Klippton (Aug 21, 2022)

Somehow that sounds _exactly_ like something an engineer would do 🧐🤔


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## swyse (Aug 21, 2022)

Robert said:


> Here's an example of what they wanted to do to the Flock panel recently...
> 
> They contacted me saying their engineers wanted to add another breaktab at this location to "increase stability"...
> 
> ...


is this part of the Confirm Production file option? I've never gotten an email for mine for changes, but I also don't think they've ruined any of mine but now I'm curious because I had a fairly reasonable circuit not work and I never figured out why.


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## Robert (Aug 21, 2022)

swyse said:


> is this part of the Confirm Production file option?



It's not, they just randomly decide to poke around in my Gerber files.    They've attempted to change PCBs that I've been ordering for years out of nowhere (the Kliche, for example)...   I generally only use JLCPCB for smaller prototype orders but occasionally throw batches of PCBs in so shipping costs make more sense.

After the last time I had my sales manager put a note on the account to not make _any _changes to submitted Gerbers without contacting me.   If there's an issue that needs to be "corrected" I will correct it myself.

They do a great job if they'd just _leave things alone_! 😂 

I see what happened with the Celestial Drive PCB, I'm waiting on a response to find out _why _it happened.


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## Deperduci (Aug 21, 2022)

remind them of basic economics, YOU are the customer, make it how ordered or lose the income.


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## swyse (Aug 21, 2022)

Robert said:


> It's not, they just randomly decide to poke around in my Gerber files.    They've attempted to change PCBs that I've been ordering for years out of nowhere (the Kliche, for example)...   I generally only use JLCPCB for smaller prototype orders but occasionally throw batches of PCBs in so shipping costs make more sense.
> 
> After the last time I had my sales manager put a note on the account to not make _any _changes to submitted Gerbers without contacting me.   If there's an issue that needs to be "corrected" I will correct it myself.
> 
> ...


Is there a company you prefer to work with? I know a builder that got his diodes flipped on his pcb so they were going the same way instead of the usual clipping arrangement, maybe I'll throw a note on my next order because I'm paranoid now haha.


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## benny_profane (Aug 21, 2022)

Robert said:


> I generally only use JLCPCB for smaller prototype orders but occasionally throw batches of PCBs in so shipping costs make more sense.


What's your main fab house?


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## Bricksnbeatles (Aug 21, 2022)

I’ve spent hours trying to think of a joke about “unspoken” something (get it? Un-spoke-n)…

I’m worried that I’ve lost my comedic touch, but those fears are probably groundless.


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## Deperduci (Aug 21, 2022)

You need to get grounded in reality for awhile.. maybe try humming 1 note for 3 minutes?


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## Feral Feline (Aug 22, 2022)

Bricksnbeatles said:


> I’ve spent hours trying to think of a joke about “unspoken” something (get it? Un-spoke-n)…
> 
> I’m worried that I’ve lost my comedic touch, but those fears are probably groundless.


You spoke too soon, I'm sure you'll wheel something out, in time.


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## Feral Feline (Aug 22, 2022)

So the fab house wasn't so fab, how many are there, four?


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## music6000 (Aug 22, 2022)

You learn something new everyday, I knew what to look for on a Ground pad!
I'm glad somebody SPOKE up, now I know what it's called!


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## jimilee (Aug 22, 2022)

Dad jokes, lots of dad jokes….


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## Bricksnbeatles (Aug 22, 2022)

jimilee said:


> Dad jokes, lots of dad jokes….


Was gonna say I’m way too young for my jokes to be dad jokes, but I just realized that some people I went to high school with have kids in elementary school now 😅


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## DGWVI (Aug 22, 2022)

Just had a similar issue with a Trembling Loon board- there was _NO _trace between R18 and pin 2 of IC1. Luckily those pads are immediately next to eachother, so a jumper sorted it

And, I had a Sidescroller build recently that had ground spokes on a pad that was _NOT _supposed to have one. Cutting those traces was fun


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## jimilee (Aug 22, 2022)

DGWVI said:


> Just had a similar issue with a Trembling Loon board- there was _NO _trace between R18 and pin 2 of IC1. Luckily those pads are immediately next to eachother, so a jumper sorted it
> 
> And, I had a Sidescroller build recently that had ground spokes on a pad that was _NOT _supposed to have one. Cutting those traces was fun


Same thing happened to me with the recycler. Hmmmm


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## Dan M (Aug 22, 2022)

Robert said:


> Now I'm no engineer, but what do _you _think is going to happen to that breakout board when you attempt to snap off the tab right beside that column of holes?    It's going to live up to it's name, that's what.


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