# Meaty Balls (My Meat Sack)



## djmiyta (Oct 12, 2021)

I’ve finally made progress on my Meat Sack.  It now passes signal on and off by-pass all the LED’s are functioning as (I ) would expect fluctuating with the strength of my strum etc. so what’s the problem with mine fucktioning like it’s all good but not giving up the effect in other words all’s not right though it behaves like it should be all good . Here’s the board shots


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## PJS (Oct 13, 2021)

You have a damaged capacitor in the middle next to the TL074.  From my experience that amount of melting of the case has almost certainly destroyed the capacitor.  That may not be what is causing your problem, but I think you need to replace it.


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## PJS (Oct 13, 2021)

Also, I think that if you are using an LED and LDR combo to make a vactrol you usually need to use tape or something similar to stop light getting in.


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## Coda (Oct 13, 2021)

Are the IC’s oriented correctly?


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## fig (Oct 13, 2021)

djmiyta said:


> I’ve finally made progress on my Meat Sack.


Sounds lovely!


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## carlinb17 (Oct 13, 2021)

djmiyta said:


> I’ve finally made progress on my Meat Sack.  It now passes signal on and off by-pass all the LED’s are functioning as (I ) would expect fluctuating with the strength of my strum etc. so what’s the problem with mine fucktioning like it’s all good but not giving up the effect in other words all’s not right though it behaves like it should be all good . Here’s the board shots


I built one from Aion, I would imagine the principals are the same as your build although the build is different. I had two major issues, the first being I had some of my wiring for the expression pedal wired wrong. Secondly I went through about a dozen LM 1438 and LM358 IC's until I found one that trigged properly for me. A good idea and what helped me was I went through the schematics with an audio probe.  Also of note some settings are better than others for testing (there are a lot of options for on this pedal. Kevin at Aion goes very in-depth and lost me several times in this document... but here it is maybe it can help shed some light on your problem. 



			https://aionfx.com/app/files/docs/spectron_documentation.pdf
		


He also goes into why he doesn't use the vactrol and uses the bare led/ldr which I would imagine is the same in your case. But follow it with a audio probe and see where you lose signal or where you don't get modulation that you should.


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## mdc (Oct 13, 2021)

These builds are so prone to issues that I think there's a dedicated 50-page thread on DIYS about them. It's a fussy one for sure...


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## zgrav (Oct 13, 2021)

PJS said:


> Also, I think that if you are using an LED and LDR combo to make a vactrol you usually need to use tape or something similar to stop light getting in.


Oddly enough, the LED/LDR combos were not light-isolated in the Lovetone Meatball.  And that lack of light-isoloation inside the case may have been a part of the Lovetone sound.  See page 9 of the AionFX build document:  https://aionfx.com/app/files/docs/spectron_documentation.pdf


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## Coda (Oct 13, 2021)

zgrav said:


> Oddly enough, the LED/LDR combos were not light-isolated in the Lovetone Meatball.  And that lack of light-isoloation inside the case may have been a part of the Lovetone sound.  See page 9 of the AionFX build document:  https://aionfx.com/app/files/docs/spectron_documentation.pdf


I would think that, inside the case, there would be no need for isolation. When the case is opened and the circuit run, however…


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## andare (Oct 13, 2021)

fig said:


> Sounds lovely!


I clicked for the title and started giggling like a kid. Didn't really want to leave an immature comment but I can't stop laughing after reading your reaction. I'm 45 btw

Reminds of Bill Burr losing it while reading an ad


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## zgrav (Oct 13, 2021)

Coda said:


> I would think that, inside the case, there would be no need for isolation. When the case is opened and the circuit run, however…


there are two of the LED/LDR pairs inside the case, with the option of setting them independently or out of phase with one another.  there is a possibility for some "light pollution" coloring the sound. or "branding" the sound, perhaps.

you absolutely need to shield the LDRs from ambient light when testing the unit with the case opened.


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## djmiyta (Oct 13, 2021)

carlinb17 said:


> I built one from Aion, I would imagine the principals are the same as your build although the build is different. I had two major issues, the first being I had some of my wiring for the expression pedal wired wrong. Secondly I went through about a dozen LM 1438 and LM358 IC's until I found one that trigged properly for me. A good idea and what helped me was I went through the schematics with an audio probe.  Also of note some settings are better than others for testing (there are a lot of options for on this pedal. Kevin at Aion goes very in-depth and lost me several times in this document... but here it is maybe it can help shed some light on your problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I also have the AION pcb's for the meatball and doppelganger waiting on the boxes and some jacks. I wanted to do a side by side comparison of the 4 pedals once finished. I've used my homemade vactrols in several other builds with no problems . This one is odd since EVERYTHING seems to be operating as should just no meatball effect when engaged although it was tested out of the box but in a semi dark room so hoping once boxed it will work as it should. Just hate taking it out of the box every time is another chance for me to mess something up.
 The LM1458 and LM358 IC's you said you went through about a dozen. Did you have to try different combinations of the 2 just pulling one out and putting a differnt one in until you got effect? 
 Also 1 board uses a TL074 with a 1458 and the other one uses 2 TL072 and 1 LM358. any one know why ? just design choice or is one better than the other?


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## zgrav (Oct 13, 2021)

you can lay a cloth on top of the opened box to block out the indirect light to see if it is working.  take a look at the manual for the* meatball* to read about the settings, since the attack and release knobs need to be set in ranges that do not stop the controls from working.


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## djmiyta (Oct 13, 2021)

Thanks for the info everyone! I had read that audio probing this pedal is difficult due to the vactrols not being isolated and ambient light and all.
so should I probe as I would any other pedal?


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## carlinb17 (Oct 13, 2021)

djmiyta said:


> Thanks for the info everyone! I had read that audio probing this pedal is difficult due to the vactrols not being isolated and ambient light and all.
> so should I probe as I would any other pedal?


you can throw something small over them even a folded piece index card will work


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## djmiyta (Oct 13, 2021)

carlinb17 said:


> you can throw something small over them even a folded piece index card will work


Yeah I just finished building them a custom cardboard house. Gonna fire it up n check it right after my beer run


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## carlinb17 (Oct 13, 2021)

djmiyta said:


> I also have the AION pcb's for the meatball and doppelganger waiting on the boxes and some jacks. I wanted to do a side by side comparison of the 4 pedals once finished. I've used my homemade vactrols in several other builds with no problems . This one is odd since EVERYTHING seems to be operating as should just no meatball effect when engaged although it was tested out of the box but in a semi dark room so hoping once boxed it will work as it should. Just hate taking it out of the box every time is another chance for me to mess something up.
> The LM1458 and LM358 IC's you said you went through about a dozen. Did you have to try different combinations of the 2 just pulling one out and putting a differnt one in until you got effect?
> Also 1 board uses a TL074 with a 1458 and the other one uses 2 TL072 and 1 LM358. any one know why ? just design choice or is one better than the other?


I"m not sure why either use the components that they do, it might be an accessibility factor. for the IC's I just pulled and tried, and pulled and tried. Like @mdc said its prone to issues... But setting it in a. "standard" mode while trouble shooting will definitely help. 

On another note with your doppelgänger are you using B1K or B2K for the span pots? Originally they came out and said B2K for the span pots and had a section noting that this was for more range but said you may have issues with the LED's for rate. I noticed that they took the B2K's off the parts list recently and only have B1K's...


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## djmiyta (Oct 13, 2021)

carlinb17 said:


> I"m not sure why either use the components that they do, it might be an accessibility factor. for the IC's I just pulled and tried, and pulled and tried. Like @mdc said its prone to issues... But setting it in a. "standard" mode while trouble shooting will definitely help.
> 
> On another note with your doppelgänger are you using B1K or B2K for the span pots? Originally they came out and said B2K for the span pots and had a section noting that this was for more range but said you may have issues with the LED's for rate. I noticed that they took the B2K's off the parts list recently and only have B1K's...


yeah I read a thread Lace Sensor wrote (might even have been between someone fron AION  and Lace Sensor not sure ) about the LED's locking up and that 2K is a mod and only a suggestion which yeah the more range sounds good so I went with the 2K on the DEFX board will go with 1k on the AION board they should be here Saturday with my boxes . I haven't started the Aion meatball board yet . So I have the 2 DEFX builds and neither have I gotten to work properly both pass signal but I think I'm alot closer to getting the meatball right since I can visually see the pots and guitar effecting the LED's I just cant hear any effect like Ive heard on youtube. Not even close just clean sounds with extremely subtle changes in volume as I rotate knobs and switches


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## djmiyta (Oct 13, 2021)

so testing my Meat Sak again(I just like saying) I now do get very subtle effect this is without swapping out any IC's so can I assume by swapping out ICs until I get an effect that sounds good to my ear? Does swapping IC's change the intensity of the entire effect or is once you can hear the effect that its up to you to find something now that you like. in other words now that I can hear the effect its still in no way as extreme an effect as I've heard on  youtube keep experimenting with swapping chips? or any other suggestions?


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## carlinb17 (Oct 13, 2021)

The changing of the chip for me allowed the envelope to trigger. Part of my problem at the time was my effect signal was cut off at the expression pedal input because I wired it wrong. So using an audio probe helped because while I still had sound when it was engaged it was dry sound with no wet. I would definitely start following the audio path through with a probe. I jumped all my loop and expression pads initially to sort it out. Kevin at Aion in his build doc talks about how even he had issues with triggering and changed around ics.


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## djmiyta (Oct 12, 2021)

I’ve finally made progress on my Meat Sack.  It now passes signal on and off by-pass all the LED’s are functioning as (I ) would expect fluctuating with the strength of my strum etc. so what’s the problem with mine fucktioning like it’s all good but not giving up the effect in other words all’s not right though it behaves like it should be all good . Here’s the board shots


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## djmiyta (Oct 14, 2021)

carlinb17 said:


> The changing of the chip for me allowed the envelope to trigger. Part of my problem at the time was my effect signal was cut off at the expression pedal input because I wired it wrong. So using an audio probe helped because while I still had sound when it was engaged it was dry sound with no wet. I would definitely start following the audio path through with a probe. I jumped all my loop and expression pads initially to sort it out. Kevin at Aion in his build doc talks about how even he had issues with triggering and changed around ics.



When you say you jumped the loop and expression pads you mean using jumper cables to connect the send and return? The reason i ask is I built a tight metal and once boxed up wouldnt work out yes in no until I don't know why maybe read it but used jumpers for the 2 fxloops the pedal has and then the pedal worked I finally pulled it out and jumpered it on the board getting rid of the loops Fantastic pedal by the way I've since built 4 and they all mild deviations in over all tone each one brings it I personally can't say enough  as I go on about it............

sorry I know  that's alot for a simple question


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## djmiyta (Oct 14, 2021)

oh and I pulled out the lm1458 and tried with lm358. I think the lm1458 I was able to get more 'effect' from the pedal but I'm unable to get the extreme sounds that I've heard on youtube. I wonder if maybe my GL5531?'s I bought like 300 of like 8 values of the GL55 series and  I don't know a whole lot about there characteristics and varibles except they go on with light off in dark or vice versa  shows my knowledge right there
So I can get some meatball sound with both chips one I favor but even with that chip in I'm unable to get anything more when I mess with the rotary switches and I have now read the manual thanx btw think swapping my LDR's out ? Even if the LDR's are from the same batch? or would it be a waste of time and should look else where to get more 'effect'?

I'm speaking about my DEFX board now I'm about to finish up my Aion build very soon so hopefully Ill have something to compare it to haa ha ha h aha ha ha aha ha ha ha aaaahhhhhhhhh......sigh


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## carlinb17 (Oct 14, 2021)

djmiyta said:


> oh and I pulled out the lm1458 and tried with lm358. I think the lm1458 I was able to get more 'effect' from the pedal but I'm unable to get the extreme sounds that I've heard on youtube. I wonder if maybe my GL5531?'s I bought like 300 of like 8 values of the GL55 series and  I don't know a whole lot about there characteristics and varibles except they go on with light off in dark or vice versa  shows my knowledge right there
> So I can get some meatball sound with both chips one I favor but even with that chip in I'm unable to get anything more when I mess with the rotary switches and I have now read the manual thanx btw think swapping my LDR's out ? Even if the LDR's are from the same batch? or would it be a waste of time and should look else where to get more 'effect'?
> 
> I'm speaking about my DEFX board now I'm about to finish up my Aion build very soon so hopefully Ill have something to compare it to haa ha ha h aha ha ha aha ha ha ha aaaahhhhhhhhh......sigh


I guess it cannot hurt to try to change out the ldr but I don’t know if that will really change anything assuming their the correct ones for the build. As for jumping I added a blob of solder across the pads Kevin mentions this in his write up. Here’s the inside of mine for reference.

test with; bandwidth full, Sensitivity max, attack min, decay up higher than attack, like 1/4, color half to full, intensity full, mix more than half.


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## djmiyta (Oct 14, 2021)

carlinb17 said:


> I guess it cannot hurt to try to change out the ldr but I don’t know if that will really change anything assuming their the correct ones for the build. As for jumping I added a blob of solder across the pads Kevin mentions this in his write up. Here’s the inside of mine for reference.
> 
> test with; bandwidth full, Sensitivity max, attack min, decay up higher than attack, like 1/4, color half to full, intensity full, mix more than half.


cool thank you very much


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## djmiyta (Oct 17, 2021)

Well I think I have my Meatball working but not getting a very strong wet signal at all . The LED that glows as you play seems to work and turning the pots and switches affects that LED as well so everything 'seems' to working properly just don't know why I'm not getting as much wet signal as I hear on youtube. Anybody have some idea where I could start checking and if use the audioprobe what should I be listening for since I have audio at the output.
Thanks in advance
Also I made my own vactrol using GL5537 is there a difference between GL5537-1 and GL5537 or are they the same?
2 other observations
1 - the only real effect I'm getting is a little auto-wah mixed with a little vibrato I guess is the best way to describe the sound 
2 - when using the blend pot at fully CCW  the volume is normal as I rotate clockwise in the middle I get a bit of volume drop at full CW its the same as when fully CCW maybe the pots bad?
I'd really love to get working like it should ANY ideas besides throwing against the wall , finding another hobby, or moving to Siberia is really much appreciated. Almost everyrhing I know about building boxes and electronics has been learned through forums like this so thank you everyone.


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## PJS (Oct 17, 2021)

Did you ever change that melted capacitor?


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## carlinb17 (Oct 20, 2021)

I find throwing a boost in front of it helps trigger a more pronounced effect. Also where are you setting your intensity, attack and decay?


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## djmiyta (Oct 20, 2021)

carlinb17 said:


> I find throwing a boost in front of it helps trigger a more pronounced effect. Also where are you setting your intensity, attack and decay?


Great idea I’ll try that. So your build doesn’t have a very pronounced effect by itself ? I have spent a few hours twiddling knobs and tried settings suggested but still little effect. I’m thinking 1 - I haven’t found the right combination of IC chips or 2- my expression jacks are the wrong ones (I used the Tayda plastic switched jacks )but I’m thinking maybe they’re not isolated. I actually have some isolated ones I had for my AION board just waiting on a couple of parts to finish that up if I get that one working maybe I’ll find some answers there even though they’re a bit different it’s the same effect thank you for the help


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## carlinb17 (Oct 24, 2021)

mine does have what I would expect it to do, but for me (and I think lots of others) to trigger the envelope it very much depends on the settings. I can send you a video of how mine sounds. I don't have a YouTube account or any other social media to post it on, so shoot me a pm and I will send it over. Also I do think according to your build docs the deadendfx must have insulated jack for the intensity jack you cannot use the ones with the metal barrel unless you wrap electrical tape or something around it.


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## djmiyta (Oct 30, 2021)

Wooo hooo ! Proud parent of twins people!! One is an abortion survivor (you are forewarned and apologies to any who find my words offensive  ) But both twins are 100% functional in today’s society 1st up the ugly one


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## djmiyta (Oct 30, 2021)

2nd and prettier but no less wonderful than Ugly Sack is Meat Sax and now to have some with loops. Don’t judge it’s seriously my 1st time trying something in a loop now I got 2 of em

And lastly they sure are a funky finicky my way or the hiway take your time with my knobs kind a pedal but so worth the time given on to looping…………..!!


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## lcamino64 (Jan 30, 2022)

I am attempting this build (Meaty Balls).  I'm finished, but unfortunately it doesn't work.  HELP!!!   I have no idea where to start.  I'm relatively new to DIY pedal building.  I've built several pedals from Aion, and Fuzz Dog with great success.  This build however, seems to be getting the better of me.  I do well with the "paint by numbers" kits that have all the parts included.

I have sound in bypass and when I turn the blend all the way to dry signal.  I messed up something in the circuit...
I started checking for voltage across the resistors as a place to start.  I don't have voltage across RP1, R42, R43, or R52.  Not sure if that means anything.  I installed the VTL5C3 vactrols instead of doing the LED/light resistor setup.  
Any feedback or input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks


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## Username123 (Jan 30, 2022)

lcamino64 said:


> I am attempting this build (Meaty Balls).  I'm finished, but unfortunately it doesn't work.  HELP!!!   I have no idea where to start.  I'm relatively new to DIY pedal building.  I've built several pedals from Aion, and Fuzz Dog with great success.  This build however, seems to be getting the better of me.  I do well with the "paint by numbers" kits that have all the parts included.
> 
> I have sound in bypass and when I turn the blend all the way to dry signal.  I messed up something in the circuit...
> I started checking for voltage across the resistors as a place to start.  I don't have voltage across RP1, R42, R43, or R52.  Not sure if that means anything.  I installed the VTL5C3 vactrols instead of doing the LED/light resistor setup.
> ...


Post clear pictures of the pcb and offboard wiring first. We need to check the pcb first even though the problem probably has to do with the offboard wiring.


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## Username123 (Jan 30, 2022)

Check for cold joints, which are the round blobs of solder that aren't shiny. You want to have a Hershey kiss shape that is shiny. Also start a new troubleshooting thread please.


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## giovanni (Jan 30, 2022)

lcamino64 said:


> I am attempting this build (Meaty Balls).  I'm finished, but unfortunately it doesn't work.  HELP!!!   I have no idea where to start.  I'm relatively new to DIY pedal building.  I've built several pedals from Aion, and Fuzz Dog with great success.  This build however, seems to be getting the better of me.  I do well with the "paint by numbers" kits that have all the parts included.
> 
> I have sound in bypass and when I turn the blend all the way to dry signal.  I messed up something in the circuit...
> I started checking for voltage across the resistors as a place to start.  I don't have voltage across RP1, R42, R43, or R52.  Not sure if that means anything.  I installed the VTL5C3 vactrols instead of doing the LED/light resistor setup.
> ...


To add to what others said, start a thread in troubleshooting with hi def pictures of both sides of the board and off board wiring.


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## djmiyta (Jan 30, 2022)

zgrav said:


> there are two of the LED/LDR pairs inside the case, with the option of setting them independently or out of phase with one another.  there is a possibility for some "light pollution" coloring the sound. or "branding" the sound, perhaps.
> 
> you absolutely need to shield the LDRs from ambient light when testing the unit with the case opened.


Not 1/2 as much as most on this forum but about this circuit . It’s a bit strange that there is no vactrols isolation matter of the last I actually saw a light sheild being used was in a Sustainer pedal in every build that calls  for vactrols and/ or homemade ones the isolation it seems is primarily for the circuit as a whole to operate properly rather than individually (I built a small cardboard box for testing the vactrols) having to be isolated I haven’t had a vactrols build that has required a light shield in order for the circuit to work correctly tho I know they exist I would assume that to be circuit dependent. And I have yet to buy Vactrols all are homemade with 0 (zero) issues and never having to swap  em as long as you get the recommended


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## djmiyta (Jan 30, 2022)

djmiyta said:


> Not 1/2 as much as most on this forum but about this circuit . It’s a bit strange that there is no vactrols isolation matter of the last I actually saw a light sheild being used was in a Sustainer pedal in every build that calls  for vactrols and/ or homemade ones the isolation it seems is primarily for the circuit as a whole to operate properly rather than individually (I built a small cardboard box for testing the vactrols) having to be isolated I haven’t had a vactrols build that has required a light shield in order for the circuit to work correctly tho I know they exist I would assume that to be circuit dependent. And I have yet to buy Vactrols all are homemade with 0 (zero) issues and never having to swap  em as long as you get the recommended


Sorry that post got all jacked up didn’t even mean to post it 
Cause I wasn’t done blabbing


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## djmiyta (Jan 30, 2022)

lcamino64 said:


> I am attempting this build (Meaty Balls).  I'm finished, but unfortunately it doesn't work.  HELP!!!   I have no idea where to start.  I'm relatively new to DIY pedal building.  I've built several pedals from Aion, and Fuzz Dog with great success.  This build however, seems to be getting the better of me.  I do well with the "paint by numbers" kits that have all the parts included.
> 
> I have sound in bypass and when I turn the blend all the way to dry signal.  I messed up something in the circuit...
> I started checking for voltage across the resistors as a place to start.  I don't have voltage across RP1, R42, R43, or R52.  Not sure if that means anything.  I installed the VTL5C3 vactrols instead of doing the LED/light resistor setup.
> ...


I can post some voltages of my working ones just be aware that it can trick you into thinking it’s not working when 1 your jacks are jacked (I.e isolated means ISOLATED 2 the controls have a learning curve the working pedal will do everything from nothing to crazy shit and if you haven’t yet, build a signal tracer I just use an old android phone with a free test tone app run through the circuit and a small amp to hear the signal  if you build more you will use it no better way to troubleshoot quickly


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