# Battery power supply



## pi.cast (Oct 6, 2021)

While testing my recently built fuzz and overdrive pedals, I've noticed they sound way better with 9V batteries (even compared to a switching power supply).
For this reason, I've started researching a way to build a reliable battery power supply that could power multiple pedal, be hosted on a pedalboard, and be controlled by its main power.

There are some commercially available solutions, like:





						Vertex Battery Power Supply | vertexeffects.com
					

Want a power supply that gets best possible tone out of your pedals? What if the answer is 9V batteries?  Believe it or not, some of the most discerning “tone-conscious” guitarists like Eric Johnson, Scott Henderson, Michael Landau, and Josh Smith (to name a few), all prefer cheap “Dollar Store”...



					www.vertexeffects.com
				




but here in Europe, they are almost impossible to find or can only be obtained at outrageous prices.
I, therefore, decided to build my own. It is powered by four 9V zinc-carbon batteries, that are switched by an external power supplier (red jack) through a couple of solid-state relays.
This way the batteries remain isolated but do not run out of juice If you don't disconnect the cables.

For a more eco-friendly solution I can also swap out the 9V zinc-carbon batteries, for rechargeable lithium units, although unfortunately, they do not sound as good.

The wiring could have been neater, I admit that. I've threaded and screwed a post in the base plate of the enclosure, so that the batteries can be changed by just unscrewing one fastener at the center, instead of four at the base.
The fastener is also temporary, I've already sourced some thumb screws, to allow a battery swap without screwdriver.


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## Harry Klippton (Oct 6, 2021)

Nice work. I love this! How does the red switching jack work? I didn't follow that part


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## BuddytheReow (Oct 6, 2021)

Looks great! Have you considered using rechargeable batteries?


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## Big Monk (Oct 6, 2021)

First of all, great build! 

Not to sidebar, but when people say "they sounded better with batteries...", do they mean noise? Overall tone?

I've been building fuzzes for some time and started out adding battery connections to all that I built so that I could test both. I've never noticed a difference using batteries. Maybe it's just me?


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## BuddytheReow (Oct 6, 2021)

IMO batteries are the 'cleanest' power source, but can get costly. That's why I suggested rechargeable batteries


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## pi.cast (Oct 6, 2021)

Harry Klippton said:


> Nice work. I love this! How does the red switching jack work? I didn't follow that part



The red jack gets 9v from the standard pedalboard power supplier (the one powering the rest of the pedals), and triggers two solid-state relays connecting the batteries' positive leads to the pedals. Each relay drives two batteries.

This way when the pedalboard's main power is on, the batteries are connected, and when you unplugged the pedalboard, the batteries are automatically disconnected and not being drained.



Big Monk said:


> First of all, great build!
> 
> Not to sidebar, but when people say "they sounded better with batteries...", do they mean noise? Overall tone?
> 
> I've been building fuzzes for some time and started out adding battery connections to all that I built so that I could test both. I've never noticed a difference using batteries. Maybe it's just me?



I was also very skeptical, but in the case of pedals using germanium transistors, it does make a tangible difference in tone. You have to use zinc-carbon batteries though. Alkaline batteries unfortunately do not provide the same results in my experience.




BuddytheReow said:


> IMO batteries are the 'cleanest' power source, but can get costly. That's why I suggested rechargeable batteries



These are Chinese special zinc-carbon batteries that cost next to nothing and should last a very long time with my rate of playing.
However, I'll be sourcing and testing rechargeable 9v batteries as a more environmentally friendly alternative.


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## Harry Klippton (Oct 6, 2021)

Ive had the same carbon zinc battery in my sunface for 3 years and i use it pretty much every time I play guitar


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## Big Monk (Oct 6, 2021)

pi.cast said:


> I was also very skeptical, but in the case of pedals using germanium transistors, it does make a tangible difference in tone. You have to use zinc-carbon batteries though. Alkaline batteries unfortunately do not provide the same results in my experience.



I'll pick some up on my next (only) trip to the dollar store.


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## Coda (Oct 6, 2021)

pi.cast said:


> The red jack gets 9v from the standard pedalboard power supplier (the one powering the rest of the pedals), and triggers two solid-state relays connecting the batteries' positive leads to the pedals. Each relay drives two batteries.
> 
> This way when the pedalboard's main power is on, the batteries are connected, and when you unplugged the pedalboard, the batteries are automatically disconnected and not being drained.




Genius.


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## Big Monk (Oct 6, 2021)

Parts list or it didn't happen....


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## pi.cast (Oct 6, 2021)

Coda said:


> Genius.



Well, I'm just a hack who can barely use a soldering iron  ... I've just copied what other people have done commercially.



Big Monk said:


> Parts list or it didn't happen....



There aren't many parts at all:

-1x 1590BB Enclosure
-2x Omron G5V-2-H1-DC9 relays (but many others will work)
-2x 2N3904 diodes (to avoid wrong polarities on the relays)
-4x Keystone 1290 battery holders (they are quite pricey, you can use way cheaper plastic ones)
-5x 2.1mm dc jacks
-1x 5mm red led
-1x 4.7k resistor (for the led)
-4x Chinesium (zinc-carbon) batteries


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## Big Monk (Oct 6, 2021)

pi.cast said:


> Well, I'm just a hack who can barely use a soldering iron  ... I've just copied what other people have done commercially.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm going to test my germanium MK II and Fizz Face with batteries and if it sounds better, I'll build the 1/2 version of yours and run them off that.


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## SillyOctpuss (Oct 6, 2021)

I use a rechargeable usb battery bank to power pedals at gigs.  I use one of these to drop the voltage down to 9v.  






						myVolts 9V Ripcord USB to DC power cable, centre negative, model AA927MS
					

E-Commerce Web Store



					myvolts.co.uk
				




Totally silent and I get a good few hrs from a full charge.


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## finebyfine (Oct 6, 2021)

Brilliant job!!  I will enjoy using this build as an excuse to hold on to 18650 cells that I really ought to just recycle. I personally have no opinion on battery vs power supply but a great project's a great project anyway you cut it.


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## Big Monk (Oct 7, 2021)

So, I went DEEP last night before bed on researching the who, what, where, why and how of fuzzes and batteries. 

This will be a cheap, low key project for me. I’m going to use a few sources I found, namely this thread, Jack Orman’s voltage sag and series resistance emulator and R.G.’s voltage sag comments to build a sag box that truly emulates battery “Tone”.

I’m a bit of a skeptic because I don’t think the battery alone makes a difference but I’ll use my ears and “see” what I find. 

If batteries are the way forward, I’ll build one of these boxes. Great thread!


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## caiofilipini (Oct 7, 2021)

Just throwing this out there:









						Virtual Battery
					

Your Fuzz Face doesn't have a power jack?  A particular overdrive doesn't like power supplies at all? Fool it with a Virtual Battery – it will literally never know!




					shop.thegigrig.com


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## Big Monk (Oct 7, 2021)

caiofilipini said:


> Just throwing this out there:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The only issue with the GigRig, if we are trying to *really* emulate the elements of a battery, is that it only offers a fixed series resistance.


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## finebyfine (Oct 7, 2021)

caiofilipini said:


> Just throwing this out there:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



101 level question here but would DIYing this require a transformer that's already like $20?


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## Big Monk (Oct 7, 2021)

finebyfine said:


> 101 level question here but would DIYing this require a transformer that's already like $20?



I would argue you don't need an isolated out for a Fuzz pedal, ergo no transformer required. I'm wondering if a Virtual Battery/Sag Circuit thread is required here. 

I don't want to hijack @pi.cast and his thread. Unless you're ok with this topic within the thread?


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## finebyfine (Oct 7, 2021)

Big Monk said:


> I would argue you don't need an isolated out for a Fuzz pedal, ergo no transformer required. I'm wondering if a Virtual Battery/Sag Circuit thread is required here.
> 
> I don't want to hijack @pi.cast and his thread. Unless you're ok with this topic within the thread?



(_sorry for adding to the tangent - please feel free to ask me to delete my replies_) I was just asking about the isolator part in general, not necessarily for the same applications


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## Big Monk (Oct 7, 2021)

finebyfine said:


> (_sorry for adding to the tangent - please feel free to ask me to delete my replies_) I was just asking about the isolator part in general, not necessarily for the same applications



No! Not my intention to shame you. This is awesome conversation. 

Yes, if you require isolation from a module, you'll need a transformer.


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## finebyfine (Oct 7, 2021)

Not how I read ya at all @Big Monk! Just wanted to clarify what I was asking  Bummer that DIYing wouldn't save enough money to make it seem worthwhile (at least for my wallet / desire to have one)


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## Big Monk (Oct 7, 2021)

So, inspired by this thread, I used a 9v snap that I soldered to an old barrel plug years ago that I accidentally wired reverse polarity, then stuck it on an ACTUAL reverse polarity cable that came with my power supply, and tested my 2 Germanium fuzzes with a carbon zinc battery I had in my 9V stash.

There was definitely a small difference between power supply and battery. There was a quality to the fuzz that was a little grungier and messier, which sounded cool. Not a mind-blowing experience, mind you, but it is also a fairly new battery.

I think when i design my Tonebender MK I/Zonk! and Tonebender MK III/Buzzaround/Dizzy Tone boards, i'll also design a compact voltage sag/series resistance board as well to test. 

I like the idea of "cloning" a carbon zinc battery and it's qualities without having to use batteries.


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## pi.cast (Oct 7, 2021)

I think the discussion is very interesting, so I'm eager to see how it develops.
Before building this contraption, I've also investigated virtual batteries,  then eventually decided it would have been much simpler to use real batteries rather than trying to simulate their effects. This is, however, something that I'd like to research further in the future.


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## Big Monk (Oct 7, 2021)

pi.cast said:


> I think the discussion is very interesting, so I'm eager to see how it develops.
> Before building this contraption, I've also investigated virtual batteries,  then eventually decided it would have been much simpler to use real batteries rather than trying to simulate their effects. This is, however, something that I'd like to research further in the future.



Well, the crux here is that real batteries die eventually. Also, I hate batteries. As a parent, my hate for batteries comes from the sheer amount I've used in the first 8 years of parenthood and also by my lack of understanding, whether on purpose or not, of how waste batteries are handled.

If a battery simulator can be made to ape all the good things about batteries in these fuzz circuits, without waste, and frankly with more tweakability, then I'm game.

The advantage of a tweakable battery simulator is as follows:

1.) Control over voltage;
2.) Control over simulated battery impedance;
3.) Control over simulated battery capacitance

With a battery, your stuck with the electrochemical properties of the battery itself. By modelling these things as independent parameters, you can tweak the sound to be perfect for each device.

My rough idea in my head is for a single 9v input feeding 4 separate battery sim circuits feeding up to 6 devices. An ON-ON-ON DPDT could switch in 1 Diode, 2 Diodes in series, or no diodes for voltage drop, A potentiometer used for series resistance, and an ON-ON-ON switch for some different capacitance values.

This way, you could essentially set it as a fresh battery, slightly depleted, and almost dead and do so for each device.


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## Feral Feline (Oct 8, 2021)

Neodymium magnets epoxied into key locations of the lid and base would allow tool-free battery swaps for the project, yet still be plenty secure with the appropriate magnets...

PS: Hammond also has flanged mountings that might make things easier to change batteries depending on how you set it up...






Spot Welded bottom flanges











Lid-integrated wall-mount flanges


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## joelorigo (Oct 12, 2021)

That is really cool! I just bought of the Vertex ones recently.

Apparently, there might be a PCB of one of these on the way.


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## Edenspace (Apr 7, 2022)

Big Monk said:


> So, inspired by this thread, I used a 9v snap that I soldered to an old barrel plug years ago that I accidentally wired reverse polarity, then stuck it on an ACTUAL reverse polarity cable that came with my power supply, and tested my 2 Germanium fuzzes with a carbon zinc battery I had in my 9V stash.
> 
> There was definitely a small difference between power supply and battery. There was a quality to the fuzz that was a little grungier and messier, which sounded cool. Not a mind-blowing experience, mind you, but it is also a fairly new battery.
> 
> ...


I'm curious what kind of power supplies people are using and if this is having an effect. I have a nice Cioks DC7 and I notice marginal, if any, difference in tone with my DIY or manufactured pedals. Wondering if cheap MXR and old Voodoo power supplies are the cause for all the noise and difference in tone. As mentioned before, battery sag really changes the sound. But if we can emulate that, why not save and not waste?


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## music6000 (Apr 7, 2022)

Big Monk said:


> First of all, great build!
> 
> Not to sidebar, but when people say "they sounded better with batteries...", do they mean noise? Overall tone?
> 
> I've been building fuzzes for some time and started out adding battery connections to all that I built so that I could test both. I've never noticed a difference using batteries. Maybe it's just me?


Reminded me of this, Build from around 2012.
Boss style 9v In power jack & does what is says '' 9 Volts all the way down to 1.8v ''
What they now call a Bias knob on Fuzz pedals!


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## giovanni (Apr 10, 2022)

I still don’t quite understand why batteries affect the sound of a fuzz, @Big Monk you said you found an article on the topic? This is fascinating!


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## fig (Apr 10, 2022)

You need a Battery Bitch. Yes that's what I said!









						Battery Box Micro - PedalPCB.com
					

Battery Box




					www.pedalpcb.com
				




Connect it to your pedalboard's PSU and your favorite PNP or fuzz circuit. When the external power is switched on/off, so is the battery!

Apart from my obvious failure at finger-painting....


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## andare (May 4, 2022)

fig said:


> You need a Battery Bitch. Yes that's what I said!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What are those standoffs in the pCB?


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## Big Monk (May 4, 2022)

Gonna pull the trigger on 2 of these when they are back in stock


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## fig (May 4, 2022)

andare said:


> What are those standoffs in the pCB?


It keeps the assembly from rattling around in the enclosure. There are standoffs on either side of the pcb to "suspend" it in the enclosure.


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## Robert (May 4, 2022)

The drill template will also have markings for holes in the event you want to secure the standoffs to the enclosure, but as you can see from Figs build, it looks cleaner without them.

They should be here soon, they're on the way.


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## Big Monk (May 4, 2022)

Robert said:


> The drill template will also have markings for holes in the event you want to secure the standoffs to the enclosure, but as you can see from Figs build, it looks cleaner without them.
> 
> They should be here soon, they're on the way.



I’ve got an XC Phase, DMD-2 and Muffin in the cart ready to go when these come in! I need one for the Monk Face.


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## andare (May 24, 2022)

fig said:


> It keeps the assembly from rattling around in the enclosure. There are standoffs on either side of the pcb to "suspend" it in the enclosure.


What size standoffs did you use?


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## fig (May 24, 2022)

andare said:


> What size standoffs did you use?


I used 20mm on one side and 5mm on the other. I imagine several combinations with the same total would work. Robert pointed out that smarter people would have painted the _other_ side of the enclosure for convenience when changing the battery.


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## andare (May 25, 2022)

fig said:


> I used 20mm on one side and 5mm on the other. I imagine several combinations with the same total would work. Robert pointed out that smarter people would have painted the _other_ side of the enclosure for convenience when changing the battery.


Thanks. I suppose those are standard M3 threads.


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## fig (May 25, 2022)

andare said:


> Thanks. I suppose those are standard M3 threads.


That's correct.


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## Big Monk (May 25, 2022)

Inspired by the battery box:





It's a little retrofit board you can put in a fuzz. Raw DC powers the LED so it's not drawing off the battery and the relay setup is the same as the battery box.


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## Feral Feline (Jun 11, 2022)

My Battery Bitches ... erh Battery Box Micro PCBs... arrived yesterday.
I also ordered the Kemet relays from PPCB, blindly, thinking they were for the BBMs.

No worries, as I needed the Kemets for the Basic & Intelligent relay bypass boards anyway. At least with having the latter and the Kemets, I'm not entirely unintelligent.

Looks like I need to order a couple — *squints, but gets out the magnifying function on the so-called smart phone*—
... A-4.5W-K summink or tuther thingerjiggies.









						Mini Relay DPDT A-4.5W-K 4.5VDC 10PIN 2Poles 1A
					

FUJITSU COMPONENTS - Get It Fast - Same Day Shipping




					www.taydaelectronics.com
				




And so the Tayda order grows...


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## Big Monk (Jun 11, 2022)

Feral Feline said:


> My Battery Bitches ... erh Battery Box Micro PCBs... arrived yesterday.
> I also ordered the Kemet relays from PPCB, blindly, thinking they were for the BBMs.
> 
> No worries, as I needed the Kemets for the Basic & Intelligent relay bypass boards anyway. At least with having the latter and the Kemets, I'm not entirely unintelligent.
> ...



Inspired by the battery box, which I’m still going to build, I made a board for inside my fuzz circuits that takes DC from the jack and powers the LED and a relay for battery switching.


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