# Noisy Pauper



## ericrudd

Finished up my first build today. A Pauper pedal. The good news is, the LED light up. The bad news, there is a bad ground hum in both foot switch positions. Uggghh. Where to start troubleshooting?
Any help appreciated.


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## ericrudd




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## phi1

Looks like you reversed the connections on the in and out jacks. Ground always attaches to the lug that touches the sleeve.


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## ericrudd

Thank you! I’ll try that tomorrow.


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## ericrudd

Made some progress, I guess. Switched the leads on the jacks and now it passes audio. All knobs affect sound. Not much “overdrive” to speak of. Tone control works. Internal treble pot works. External Three way switch does nothing, I don’t hear it “clicking” or any evidence it’s trying to affect the sound. Nor does the internal dip switches. I guess the next thing I need to verify is that I bought the right on/off/on switch.


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## ericrudd

I’m very new to this. So any additional troubleshooting ideas would be greatly appreciated. I’ve been looking at the schematic and have been checking continuity with the IC and the various resistors and other points. I believe I put the chip itself in oriented correctly.


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## phi1

Hmm. For the toggle switch, did you happen to get a monetary switch by chance? (Which returns to the middle after you switch it, so it doesn’t stay switched). 

If you got the right one (stays in the switches position) check for continuity between your components in that area in the different switches positions. it *seems like*, from your description, maybe those diodes aren’t getting activated.


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## ericrudd

So it’s a fixed switch. Not momentary. I’ll try testing things as it relates to the switch.


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## ericrudd

As a new PCB-er, it’s daunting to find the problems.


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## Nostradoomus

Try sanding away the paint (down to bare metal) where the jacks mount. This will ensure a good solid ground connection


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## phi1

Are you getting a big volume boost?  It’s sometimes helpful to report the voltage at each pin of the IC (which you have in the right way), and we can say if they look good.

I’m thinking...
-Big volume boost but light distortion means the diodes somehow aren’t getting activated. 
-not much volume boost means some other problem with the amplification part of the circuit.


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## music6000

Can you show a Picture of the Solder side of the PCB, It would Help a lot?


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## ericrudd

Here is the solder side. Sorry for the tone control being in the way. (Do I need to pull it for y’all to see?)
Phi1, I am getting a healthy swing of level in both the drive and level pots, and a healthy swing of tone variance with that knob. It kinda acts like a boost pedal with very little “crunch.”  I have an ODR1 here I’m using as a comparison.



I’ll wire the power jack back on and measure the IC voltages. (I’ll google how to do that).
Thanks as always. And don’t laugh at my soldering job. ?


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## ericrudd

Also, I REALLY appreciate everyone’s help. I’m fifty five years old, was a professional audio engineer in a previous life, and know enough about electronics to be dangerous. I want to learn, but don’t want to use only your brains to assess the problem.


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## ericrudd

Ok. So placing black lead on ground (ring of one of the jacks) then measuring each pin starting at 1 and going counterclockwise:

1 : 4.47
2: 4.47
3: 2.22
4: 0
5: 4.35
6: 4.45
7: 4.44
8: 8.92

this was with the pedal “engaged.”


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## ericrudd

Some more notes. Looking at the printed side of the PCB, here are some continuity notes for the MA856 diodes:

with the mini switch thrown in the up direction, the left lower two pins toned with the top leg of D3 and D1. The lower right two pins toned with the top leg of D2 and D4

with the mini switch thrown down, the top left pins toned with D3 and D1, and the top right pins toned with D2 and D4.


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## music6000

ericrudd said:


> Here is the solder side. Sorry for the tone control being in the way. (Do I need to pull it for y’all to see?)
> Phi1, I am getting a healthy swing of level in both the drive and level pots, and a healthy swing of tone variance with that knob. It kinda acts like a boost pedal with very little “crunch.”  I have an ODR1 here I’m using as a comparison.
> View attachment 4294
> I’ll wire the power jack back on and measure the IC voltages. (I’ll google how to do that).
> Thanks as always.


Just swing the Tone pot up towards the Footswiitch & take a Pic of that area.
It really needs Cleaning with Isopryl & a toothbrush or Electrical cleaner!


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## phi1

All those voltages look good except I would expect pin3 to also be close to 4.5v (though I could be wrong). If it’s wrong I’m not sure shat could be causing that. I *think* your switch-diode connections make sense, without having thought too much about it


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## ericrudd




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## ericrudd

My chip is a NJM4558D. (I couldn’t find the one on the shopping list).


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## ericrudd

Finished up my first build today. A Pauper pedal. The good news is, the LED light up. The bad news, there is a bad ground hum in both foot switch positions. Uggghh. Where to start troubleshooting?
Any help appreciated.


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## ericrudd

Tried a different chip (I bought a few). Pin 3 measured 2.22 on that one. In looking at the schematic, if I’m reading it directly Pin 3 is where the input shows up. Maybe I should work backwards from there (if that value is indeed wrong).


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## music6000

ericrudd said:


> Tried a different chip (I bought a few). Pin 3 measured 2.22 on that one. In looking at the schematic, if I’m reading it directly Pin 3 is where the input shows up. Maybe I should work backwards from there (if that value is indeed wrong).


I studied your resistor values, I believe they are all correct.
Cleaning the Board might remove some crud that could be causing a short or show a dry solder joint
I'm also concerned at the size of solder build up on the underside of the Footswitch pads , Make sure there not touching!


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## ericrudd

Thank you, Music, for going to the trouble.


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## music6000

ericrudd said:


> Thank you, Music, for going to the trouble.


It's all Fun, I have to shoot off now but I'm sure you will get it fired up!


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## ericrudd

music6000 said:


> It's all Fun, I have to shoot off now but I'm sure you will get it fired up!


Less fun at the moment.


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## Barry

Some of those solder joints look like they could use a reflow, I see a few that look like round blobs they should look like a Hershey kiss or a teepee


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## ericrudd

I ended up disconnecting all jacks, etc attached to PCB. I may have found a short on that foot switch pad you mentioned. Thought I’d try doing a careful job of reconnecting.


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## ericrudd

Barry said:


> Some of those solder joints look like they could use a reflow, I see a few that look like round blobs they should look like a Hershey kiss or a teepee


I’m still trying to get better at soldering. The stupid stuff tends to pull up toward iron instead of staying in the holes!!


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## Chuck D. Bones

phi1 said:


> All those voltages look good except I would expect pin3 to also be close to 4.5v (though I could be wrong). If it’s wrong I’m not sure shat could be causing that. I *think* your switch-diode connections make sense, without having thought too much about it


The voltages are all good.
Eric's DVM is loading down the voltage when he measures pin 3. You're using a cheap DVM.  It's ok in this case, we can compensate for it, but if you get serious about pedal building, get one that has 10Meg input impedance.  Yours is 1Meg.


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## music6000

ericrudd said:


> I’m still trying to get better at soldering. The stupid stuff tends to pull up toward iron instead of staying in the holes!!


Are you using 60/40 Flux core Solder. If So, What Brand?
What Brand of Soldering Iron & Wattage!


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## ericrudd

It’s a Tiswall 65watt iron. RJ969. I have Kester solder Sn60Pb40 solder, although I ended up not using much of it because it’s 1.27mm and I felt like it was a bit big for the connections. I ended up using the solder that came with the iron because it was a smaller diameter. How’s that for scary? I have no idea what that is because it’s not labeled.

{insert photo of forum members shaking their heads in disgust here}


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## ericrudd

Chuck D. Bones said:


> The voltages are all good.
> Eric's DVM is loading down the voltage when he measures pin 3. You're using a cheap DVM.  It's ok in this case, we can compensate for it, but if you get serious about pedal building, get one that has 10Meg input impedance.  Yours is 1Meg.


You hurt my meter’s feelings. ?


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## ericrudd

Disconnected and resoldered all the jacks, foot switch, etc.  Tried it again (without mounting in enclosure) and got the same behavior....plenty of volume, tone control works.  With Drive all the way up there is no noticeable increase in overdrive, three way switch doesn’t do anything, nor do the dip switches.


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## ericrudd

Probably worth confirming a couple things....this is the toggle switch I got...









						DPDT Toggle Switch ON/OFF/ON- Solder Lug- Long Bat
					

Top Quality Parts for Guitar Effects Pedals and DIY Music Devices. Knobs, Pots, Switches, LEDs, Enclosures, Jacks, Wire, Resistors, Capacitors, Semiconductors




					stompboxparts.com


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## ericrudd

These are the two position dip switches I got....



			https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/cts/210-2ms/?qs=hDoPxpGr7ldHQa2fpEXONg%3D%3D&countrycode=US&currencycode=USD


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## ericrudd

Barry said:


> Some of those solder joints look like they could use a reflow, I see a few that look like round blobs they should look like a Hershey kiss or a teepee


Is it easier from the printed side or the side where the ends of the wires stick out?


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## phi1

Weird that _neither_ switch does anything...

Where did you get your MA856 diodes?  Does your meter have a diode setting?  Can you confirm that they measure around 0.5-0.7v across each one from anode to cathode?


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## ericrudd

phi1 said:


> Weird that _neither_ switch does anything...
> 
> Where did you get your MA856 diodes?  Does your meter have a diode setting?  Can you confirm that they measure around 0.5-0.7v across each one from anode to cathode?


I got them here....https://www.pedalhackerelectronics.com/Original-Panasonic-MA856-Diode-p/ma856.htm

I’ll check the voltages a bit later.


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## Barry

ericrudd said:


> Is it easier from the printed side or the side where the ends of the wires stick out?


Side the wires stick out


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## music6000

ericrudd said:


> Probably worth confirming a couple things....this is the toggle switch I got...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DPDT Toggle Switch ON/OFF/ON- Solder Lug- Long Bat
> 
> 
> Top Quality Parts for Guitar Effects Pedals and DIY Music Devices. Knobs, Pots, Switches, LEDs, Enclosures, Jacks, Wire, Resistors, Capacitors, Semiconductors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stompboxparts.com


With the switch in the UP position, the Center & Bottom lug should be making contact, Check for Continuity!
In the Down position, Center & Top Lug should be making contact, Check for Continuity!

When soldering any Switch, Pot, Trimmer, Transistor ect, *Always *allow to Cool each time you solder a Pad.
With Switches,* Always * solder  one pad, Cool, Skip one, Solder, Cool, Skip one,
A Minimum of 20 seconds between each pad!
When you get efficient at Soldering a Pad in 2 seconds, this may vary!!!


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## ericrudd

Finished up my first build today. A Pauper pedal. The good news is, the LED light up. The bad news, there is a bad ground hum in both foot switch positions. Uggghh. Where to start troubleshooting?
Any help appreciated.


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## ericrudd

phi1 said:


> Weird that _neither_ switch does anything...
> 
> Where did you get your MA856 diodes?  Does your meter have a diode setting?  Can you confirm that they measure around 0.5-0.7v across each one from anode to cathode?


So pardon my ignorance, but I’m not sure if I’m supposed to measure this with power applied to circuit. But with power or no power the readings were about the same.

with my meter set to diode mode, it displays (with no power)...

D2 : 701
D4: 720
D3: 713
D1: 720

They all display slightly lower in the low 700’s with the power turned on. Does this represent .7v?


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## phi1

Your meter should indicate somehow that’s it’s in millivolts, so I’m sure those are all good (pedalhacker is a reputable seller anyway).

along with the advice to cleanthe solder side of the board, I’d say check for continuity everywhere you should have it (especially in the area of those switches). An audio prI’ve is often a useful tool as well.


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## ericrudd

Ok. So I may be on to something. I was looking at the DPDT switch, checking continuity. I noticed that the only time I got the tone to sound was when the lead was touching the tip of some of the lugs. They were all loaded up with solder, but it’s as if the mound was not fully conductive. I used some flux wick to remove the old solder, then added more, taking care to get more of it down in the PCB than mounded on the lugs. Afterward, I noticed that the measurements at the MA856’s went down to the 680’s and I’m now getting an overdrive sound out of the pedal. Whoohoo. And the DPDT switch does something now...overdrive sounds in top and bottom position and cleaner (and a bit louder) in the center. I’m wondering if I’m getting the best connection at each of the six lugs.

Pedal is still very buzzy. I am using a single coil Tele and my electric in my house isn’t very quiet as some other locations. I live in a 1955 house with original wiring (no ground). I’m wondering if it might quiet down once everything is back in the enclosure. But I’m making progress.

the PCB is so junky from connecting and disconnecting things. I’m not sure if it’s possible to salvage but I’ll keep trying. I’ve got parts to build another cleaner one, but I’d like to learn as much as I can on this one.


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## ericrudd

A few general questions. Any tips for fully cleaning out a pad hole, one that seems to have a leftover thread of wire in it from an old connection? I’ve tried heating it up and picking at it with needle nose pliers. Is threaded lead wire preferable over a solid core wire?

Also, what makes a big mound of solder not conductive? You would think that a lug covered in solder would have no problem being conductive.


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## ericrudd

What I think may be happening is that these three ways have a rib of plastic running down the center, which allows it to “rock” along that axis. I think the one I installed is listing to starboard and thus the lugs on that side are raised, minimizing a good connection?  I wonder if a little Dremel tool might make it more flush.


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## Barry

If your solder is blobbing up you're likely not getting both parts you're joining heated properly


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## ericrudd

goofy question, will pedals be less noisy by virtue of being in the enclosure? As opposed to bench testing the guts outside of the enclosure. (Assuming they’re assembled correctly)


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## music6000

Yes, the Enclosure will create Shielding.
*Critical: *Make sure you remove the Powder Coat from around the holes for the Input & Output jacks inside the Enclosure


ericrudd said:


> What I think may be happening is that these three ways have a rib of plastic running down the center, which allows it to “rock” along that axis. I think the one I installed is listing to starboard and thus the lugs on that side are raised, minimizing a good connection?  I wonder if a little Dremel tool might make it more flush.


Don't touch it, It's Listing coz you didn't push it on firmly & evenly, it should be fitted in the Enclosure.
Blobbing solder is caused by Lack of heat, Crappy solder wire or your Iron is not clean or tinned properly.
.


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## ericrudd

Thanks, Music. So you’re saying that in the future  I should push it onto the board firmly so that it rests evenly? (I plan on making a second if this turns out).  To me, that middle plastic ridge will prevent it from laying “flush” against the top of the board, but I’ll trust your input.


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## phi1

Best to install all pots and switches in the enclosure (snug but loose enough that you can adjust if needed). Then insert the board on all the Pots and switches and solder it up there in the box.  (I often take it all out of the box at this point to test before doing the offboard wiring). 

This way, there aren’t stressed on your solder joints when you install in the box.


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## Barry

I mount the pots into the board attach switches to outside of the enclosure then lower board and pots onto face of enclosure and switches, get everything seated just right then solder, footswitch & LED can be done this way too, then I attach power jack coupler and jacks, test and install in to the enclosure.


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## ericrudd

Well, holy crap. Removed the powder coat from around jacks, jammed everything in, plugged in and it’s DEAD Quiet!! So happy!!
The bad news is, earlier today I wicked off the solder from the three way switch in an effort to redo and get a better connection. But I think I wanked it again, because although the unit is now noise-free, I have my original problem of little to no distortion. But at least I know what’s causing that.

Yes...I have learned so much. This off board wiring is some fragile sh^*. You can’t keep taking things in and out and expect those thin threads to hold up. This is what I’m using for wiring.....

Remington Industries 24UL1007STRRED UL1007 24 AWG Gauge Stranded Hook-Up Wire, 300V, 0.0201" Diameter, 100' Length, Red https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NB3T4MI/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_s.FUEb03RGGR5

You guys are the best. I’m learning so much. Thank you. I’ll be rebuilding a NEVE console in no time!!!


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## music6000

I would expect it to be* Dead Quiet *too.
The amount of times you have put in & taken out Solder & Wires is a surprise it does anything!
I wonder if there's an Asylum for Switches?
Welcome to Pedal Building!


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## ericrudd

LOL!


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## music6000

ericrudd said:


> Well, holy crap. Removed the powder coat from around jacks, jammed everything in, plugged in and it’s DEAD Quiet!! So happy!!
> The bad news is, earlier today I wicked off the solder from the three way switch in an effort to redo and get a better connection. But I think I wanked it again, because although the unit is now noise-free, I have my original problem of little to no distortion. But at least I know what’s causing that.
> 
> Yes...I have learned so much. This off board wiring is some fragile sh^*. You can’t keep taking things in and out and expect those thin threads to hold up. This is what I’m using for wiring.....
> 
> Remington Industries 24UL1007STRRED UL1007 24 AWG Gauge Stranded Hook-Up Wire, 300V, 0.0201" Diameter, 100' Length, Red https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NB3T4MI/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_s.FUEb03RGGR5
> 
> You guys are the best. I’m learning so much. Thank you. I’ll be rebuilding a NEVE console in no time!!!


Here are some ways to Good Soldering! 





Fast Forward to 2.00 minute mark


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## ericrudd

Music6000, this should be required viewing for newbies.  The second video is so educational.

The cleaning video was oddly peaceful to watch. It was also very informative to see how the solder interacts with the iron and it's various stages of dirty/oxidations. I like the Christmas music at the end. 

Thank you!!!


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## ericrudd

I've been reading some posts about folks testing their boards before installing in the enclosure.  But that seems like it would be pretty complicated to set up with these pre-made PCB's.  I'm not sure how you would solder test leads, etc, to the board.

I'm thinking that the most prudent thing to do would be to test continuity on the board as best you can and visual inspection and hope you didn't fry out a component. As you guys have suggested, there does seem to be _some _on board tests that can be done....the voltage across diodes, etc.


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## phi1

Test Box (BUILD ONE NOW)
					

My old test rig has run its course and I had this flimsy enclosure kicking around so I ordered up a few speaker terminals and a 3pdt toggle and went to town.  It’s bar none the easiest thing you can cobble together that will also be one of the most useful things on your bench.      All there is...



					forum.pedalpcb.com


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## zgrav

I second the suggestion for having a test box.


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## ericrudd

I wanted to first thank you all for helping talk me through my first build in about 40 years. (the last being a Heathkit metal detector back in Jr. High School.)
After beating the crap out of my first PCB and learning as I went, I decided to scrap it all and try again. I’m a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to certain things, and I have recently discovered that pedal building may be one of them.

I finished my build today and I’m so happy to report that “it’s a boy!!” Clean...externally, internally and sonically...my new Pauper sounds great!!! (Yes, there is a little insulation showing on the one lead of the output jack, but it’s well soldered otherwise. I also wasn’t able to fully get the shrink wrap on that lead, due to contraction from soldering....one more little thing to avoid next time)

Here is some documentation.


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## ericrudd

Finished up my first build today. A Pauper pedal. The good news is, the LED light up. The bad news, there is a bad ground hum in both foot switch positions. Uggghh. Where to start troubleshooting?
Any help appreciated.


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## radioteacher

Great work and it looks fantastic!  Now I want to buy and build a Pauper on my next purchase of PCB's!

RT


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## ericrudd

In case anyone wants to hear it, here’s a simple demo. Quick question in term of electronics, what affects the amount of gain? Is it the IC chip?


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## ericrudd

Here’s something I just discovered. The middle toggle “boost” setting sounds amazing with the gain dimed. It’s much more of an “opened up” overdrive sound.


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## Barry

Looks good!


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