# Red Rooster - and a question



## HamishR (Feb 29, 2020)

Saw the cool '70s fireplace style boxes at Tayda and thought they would be perfect for a red Rooster kinda build.  So I whipped this together this afternoon - it's my slightly modified version with a 2N2222A and a .022 cap on the output to tame the silicon brightness. It sounds great - it's just a clean boost but I love the flavour it imparts.

My question is - would I get a better pedal if I built this on a PCB? I am tempted to build some of these with the Pedal PCB board because I'm not sure about the long-term reliability of vero.  Any ideas?


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## HamishR (Feb 29, 2020)

And the interior:


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## K Pedals (Feb 29, 2020)

HamishR said:


> And the interior:
> View attachment 3286


Man that’s super clean for vero!¡!


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## HamishR (Feb 29, 2020)

Well I told you I was anal!


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## Chuck D. Bones (Feb 29, 2020)

Vero will hold up just fine.  How are you supporting the board?

Which side of C4 did you add the cap?


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## HamishR (Feb 29, 2020)

The board sits nicely on the wiring underneath it. I have checked to make sure it doesn't short out if pressed, but as the pedal is generally used the other way up I have little doubt that it shouldn't be an issue. The board doesn't really move at all because the wire runs are so short.

I added the 22nF cap after C4.  It seems to work ok!  Should it have gone before?  (edit) actually I guess electronically it's probably at the same point as C4.  You can see in the photo that C4 is the red cap second from the right (next to the ground buss) and my 22nF is the red cap to the right of it.


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## Chuck D. Bones (Feb 29, 2020)

Because the 22nF cap is larger than C4, it attenuates the signal at all frequencies.  You're losing 3dB of boost across the freq range.  Put the 22nF before C4 or make C4 bigger (100nF) and you won't lose so much signal.  You may end up making the 22nF smaller since now it will attenuate only the treble frequencies.  The BOOST affects how much treble gets cut.


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## Barry (Feb 29, 2020)

Nice clean build!


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## HamishR (Feb 29, 2020)

Thanks everyone!  

So Chuck - I'm not sure where I should put the treble cut - should I put it between the transistor and the boost pot?


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## zgrav (Feb 29, 2020)

If you are happy with the way it sounds as wired, and if you get enough boost out of the pedal, maybe it is OK as is.


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## HamishR (Feb 29, 2020)

Well I am getting more than enough boost and I love the sound!


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## Chuck D. Bones (Mar 1, 2020)

What zgrav said.  If you have enough boost, then I'd leave it as-is.  I was just pointing out that the treble cut-off freq gets lower as you increase the BOOST control.  Nothing wrong with that if you are getting the sound you want.


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## HamishR (Mar 1, 2020)

Well I do like very much how it sounds - just spent an hour playing it and yes, it does what I want.  With the Majestic OD and a Les Paul it is pretty the perfect boost. I love how I can have an authentic Rangemaster sound, a slightly fuller Rangemaster sound and also a full-range boost which happens to have a slight and very musical mid-hump.

But - I do also like knowing how it _should_ be done.  It's such a simple circuit there aren't many places to put a treble cutting cap!  Where would you put it, Chuck? I'm not afraid of making things better (or worse!).


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## Chuck D. Bones (Mar 1, 2020)

It's a simple circuit with few parts, so there aren't too many choices.
1) BOOST pot pin 3 to GND (or to +9V, makes no diff).  Turning the BOOST pot will not alter the treble cut.
2) BOOST pot pin 2 to GND (or to +9V, makes no diff).  Turning the BOOST pot will alter the treble cut, same as it does now.
3) OUT to GND, same as you are doing now. Turning the BOOST pot will alter the treble cut, and unless you increase C4, you will lose some of the signal.

There is nothing magic about 10nF for C4.  If the next pedal in the chain has a high impedance input (1M or more), then C4 isn't cutting off any bass and making it bigger won't change the tone.  If the next pedal has a moderate input impedance (Big Muff, for example), then C4 is cutting off some of the bass and changing C4 will have some effect on the next pedal's tone.   If the next pedal has a low input impedance (Fuzz Face, for example), then C4 is cutting off most of the bass and changing C4 will have a significant effect on the next pedal's tone.  If you make C4 larger, say 100nF, then more bass gets through, even with low impedance pedals.  I prefer my pedals to not be sensitive to what is put before or after them.  The exception is the first pedal in the chain, because I usually want that one to interact with the guitar's pickups and controls.  This pedal has a low input impedance and definitely interacts with the guitar.

What do you put before and after your Chicken Head?


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## HamishR (Mar 1, 2020)

All I have between the guitar and the Chicken Head is a tuner.  And after the Chicken Head is the 2-in-1 TBP Majestic/Caliber 45 (similar to the Animal).

I'll build another one and try a few things.  Thanks Chuck - You have no idea how fantastic it is that I can ask you this stuff and get a coherent and non-judgemental answer!


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## dawson (Mar 1, 2020)

Gee-whiz!
I'm very impressed with your wiring job.


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## Gordo (Mar 1, 2020)

^^+1.  Whenever I've tried perf board it always looks like the dog's breakfast.  I don't think I'd be too worried about longevity.  With work that clean I doubt you'll have issues.


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## HamishR (Apr 5, 2020)

Wow - thanks guys!  I guess I've been doing Vero long enough now... I'm just one of those people who likes things neat. Which is handy because my wife is a neat freak.  My office is not neat but my pedals are.   

Well what with the lockdown and all I have got around to revisiting this, and made one very simple change. I removed my 22nF cap from output to ground - the red cap furthest right in my photo - and replaced it with a 1nF which sits in exactly the same place but connects one row lower, so from Boost 3 to Ground as recommended by Chuck. Guess what?  It works!  I pulled the value 1nF outa nowhere and it seems just about right.

As Mr Smarty Pants predicted the circuit has more gain now so is a little dirtier which is cool - I kinda liked how it was before too but this sounds more authentic. Tons of level - I am running boost at around or just below noon. I guess i could go to 2n2 on the treble roll-off if I wanted to make it sound even more Ge but I'll live with it as-is for a while.

Once I had absorbed what Chuck said it made sense because this is not your typical OD circuit.  This is almost becoming monotonous - because of Chuck my pedals are all sounding better. Thanks Chuck!


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## HamishR (Nov 18, 2020)

By request here is my current layout for the RR. The Ge version is identical - just leave out the 1nF cap. Any low hfe Si transistor should work.


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## BuddytheReow (Nov 18, 2020)

HamishR said:


> By request here is my current layout for the RR. The Ge version is identical - just leave out the 1nF cap. Any low hfe Si transistor should work.
> 
> View attachment 7794


Is there a site somewhere with all these Vero layouts?


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## HamishR (Nov 18, 2020)

Not for mine, but there is http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/  That's where I got the original I based mine off. It's very close in this case! I find a lot of the layouts at tagboard effects are ok - they work - but I like to draw my own most of the time these days because either I can make them smaller or I like to have wires in particular places. In other words you develop ways of doing things which work for you. Everyone has different likes and dislikes.


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## Chuck D. Bones (Nov 19, 2020)

It's a great site, lotta good info there, but be warned that even some of the "verified" layouts contain errors.  Plan on doing some troubleshooting along the way.


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## zgrav (Nov 19, 2020)

Chuck D. Bones said:


> It's a great site, lotta good info there, but be warned that even some of the "verified" layouts contain errors.  Plan on doing some troubleshooting along the way.


Always read through the comments before starting a build to see if there are suggestions for changes that might not have been picked up in the design.


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## HamishR (Nov 19, 2020)

Yeah it's been useful but it does astonish me the attitude of some of the posters there. Mark seems cool but some of his acolytes have some serious chips on their shoulders! Some exhibit some fairly tragic insecurity issues.  It's part of the reason I find this forum so impressive. I have found none of the hostility and negativity here, and that's rare and wonderful. Plus the help I have found here is accurate and insightful.


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## BuddytheReow (Nov 19, 2020)

Chuck D. Bones said:


> It's a great site, lotta good info there, but be warned that even some of the "verified" layouts contain errors.  Plan on doing some troubleshooting along the way.


Should I not even consider the unverifieds for now? Huge library! I guess this is a great place to get my feet wet


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## HamishR (Nov 19, 2020)

If you can find the schematic they have used to make the layout it's not too hard to trace your way through it to check it will work. But then you have to know that the schematic is accurate... I wouldn't try the unverified layouts because it's usually a bad trace is the reason they aren't verified.


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## Chuck D. Bones (Nov 19, 2020)

HamishR said:


> Yeah it's been useful but it does astonish me the attitude of some of the posters there. Mark seems cool but some of his acolytes have some serious chips on their shoulders! Some exhibit some fairly tragic insecurity issues.  It's part of the reason I find this forum so impressive. I have found none of the hostility and negativity here, and that's rare and wonderful. Plus the help I have found here is accurate and insightful.


I stopped reading the comments on tagboardeffects for the same reason that I won't read the comments on YouTube.


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