# Stuff you wanted to know but were afraid to ask



## spi

A thread for stupid pedal-building questions.

I'll ask mine:
What's up with the tooth lock washers that come with 3pdt?.  Do people use them?  I use them (right up against the enclosure) only because they come with it, but also feel they don't add much value--the few times I forgot to put them in there weren't any ill effects.


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## swyse

Those little lock washers on the 3pdt I've forgotten to include a few times and never noticed a big enough issue to take the pedal back apart. I try to use them because I don't see any downside and just the potential upside of the switch not loosening prematurely. I think they are more important for jacks because I've actually had jacks come loose.


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## Harry Klippton

Great thread idea


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## Bricksnbeatles

How do you pronounce Tayda?


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## swyse

Bricksnbeatles said:


> How do you pronounce Tayda?


 I have never considered this, I've always said it like "Tay Duh" but now I could totally see it being like "Tie Dah"


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## carlinb17

Who is @fig


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## Harry Klippton

Robert said he pronounces it like "taters" 🥔


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## cwsquared

swyse said:


> I have never considered this, I've always said it like "Tay Duh" but now I could totally see it being like "Tie Dah"


This is my conundrum.  Tah-E-Dah?


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## chongmagic

Why are those white nylon washers so tasty, why do they have to attach them to the 3dpt switch. Looks like they would put them in their own bag.


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## steviejr92

I’m settling with tah-dah cause everytime I make an order TAH-DAH I forgot something 😅


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## spi

Bricksnbeatles said:


> How do you pronounce Tayda?


The only people I ever mention Tayda to are online, so I've never had to say it aloud.


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## szukalski

chongmagic said:


> Why are those white nylon washers so tasty, why do they have to attach them to the 3dpt switch. Looks like they would put them in their own bag.


My question is why are the washers not digestable? Passing them is such pain.


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## Diynot

When did PayPal start charging an “international fee” for ordering from Tayda/international board suppliers


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## benny_profane

Diynot said:


> When did PayPal start charging an “international fee” for ordering from Tayda/international board suppliers


That must be very new. PayPal has charged fees for international transactions with friends and families in the past, but it's very strange to see a customer get hit with an 'international' fee for a goods and services payment.


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## Harry Klippton

Diynot said:


> When did PayPal start charging an “international fee” for ordering from Tayda/international board suppliers


When did they indeed


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## spi

Diynot said:


> When did PayPal start charging an “international fee” for ordering from Tayda/international board suppliers


I didn't see any fee in my last order (July).  If so, this must be very new.


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## Diynot

I’ve noticed it for my last 2 Tayda orders in June and July. I can’t find them on the paypal invoices at the moment so maybe it’s just my bank, but was sure I had seen it posted on paypal
Edit: Looks to be a possible currency conversion fee


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## Paradox916

Where do babies come from?


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## Harry Klippton

Paradox916 said:


> Where do babies come from?


Tayda?


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## chongmagic

Paradox916 said:


> Where do babies come from?


Do you really want to know?


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## Coda

Why do we need another TS clone when the original circuit isn’t even all that good?…


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## Betty Wont

Paradox916 said:


> Where do babies come from?






My favorite "track 1" of all time.


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## spi

Coda said:


> Why do we need another TS clone when the original circuit isn’t even all that good?…


reported


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## Paradox916

Betty Wont said:


> My favorite "track 1" of all time.


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## Robert

Harry Klippton said:


> Robert said he pronounces it like "taters" 🥔



Tayda chips, obviously....


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## carlinb17

Robert said:


> Tayda chips, obviously....
> 
> View attachment 30779


Baked is better than fried in this case…


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## Robert

Baked, fried, stoned, just different words for the same thing...


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## fig

Robert said:


> Baked, fried, stoned, just different words for the same thing...


Great idea…bbl


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## ICTRock

spi said:


> A thread for stupid pedal-building questions.
> 
> I'll ask mine:
> What's up with the tooth lock washers that come with 3pdt?.  Do people use them?  I use them (right up against the enclosure) only because they come with it, but also feel they don't add much value--the few times I forgot to put them in there weren't any ill effects.


I'd refer to my other post in the thread about worn out rocket sockets but that there is a lock washer ... with that you don't have to tighten down the external nut so darn much because once under tension it helps prevent the threads from backing out under vibration (use)


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## ICTRock

fig said:


> Great idea…bbl


you gotta get on the edibles


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## chongmagic

Am I the only one who isn't blow away by the Klon?


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## Robert

ICTRock said:


> you gotta get on the edibles



Too unpredictable, and nowhere near as much fun.


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## andare

Why are innie DC jacks not the standard?


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## DAJE

andare said:


> Why are innie DC jacks not the standard?


They are. Do you mean "outie"?


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## andare

DAJE said:


> They are. Do you mean "outie"?


I guess. I mean inserted from the inside and tightened on the outside, like the rest of the offboard components.


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## jesuscrisp

chongmagic said:


> Am I the only one who isn't blow away by the Klon?


No. I mean I see the appeal and played rigs where a Klone was absolutely on point for the tone (e.g. Strat into Marshall), but most of the time I'd rather have a different overdrive or boost. Yet again, tons of other people probably hate the pedals I like so...



andare said:


> I guess. I mean inserted from the inside and tightened on the outside, like the rest of the offboard components.


Because they ugly.


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## GizzWizzKing

Betty Wont said:


> My favorite "track 1" of all time.


This is spot on given my limited experience.


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## andare

jesuscrisp said:


> No. I mean I see the appeal and played rigs where a Klone was absolutely on point for the tone (e.g. Strat into Marshall), but most of the time I'd rather have a different overdrive or boost. Yet again, tons of other people probably hate the pedals I like so...
> 
> 
> Because they ugly.


Let's agree to disagree


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## fig

Now what was the question? Oh…afraid to ask…hmm…does this speedo make me look sexy?


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## Harry Klippton

Ok here's my question: what determines how much of a signal gets repeated in a delay circuit?


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## ICTRock

Harry Klippton said:


> Ok here's my question: what determines how much of a signal gets repeated in a delay circuit?


how much as in signal strength or how much as in time?


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## Harry Klippton

ICTRock said:


> how much as in signal strength or how much as in time?


Time


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## fig

Harry Klippton said:


> Ok here's my question: what determines how much of a signal gets repeated in a delay circuit?


yeah that’s pretty scary too.


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## spi

Harry Klippton said:


> Ok here's my question: what determines how much of a signal gets repeated in a delay circuit?


All of it?  Maybe I don't understand the question.


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## Harry Klippton

spi said:


> All of it?  Maybe I don't understand the question.


Most delays seem to repeat "one note" why not 3? Why not the last 15 second of what you played?


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## ICTRock

Harry Klippton said:


> Time


I'm sure there's someone out there thinking long and hard about this but I would say it is a safe bet that it is no longer than the delay time itself. In a tape delay that's a function of velocity of the tape and the distance between the recording and playback heads. In a BBD delay it's a function of clock frequency and capacitor count. In digital it is determined by sample rate, sample resolution, buffer capacity, and delay time. A looper would have a larger buffer capacity, better sample rate/resolution, and a longer delay time than say a pt2399.


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## spi

Harry Klippton said:


> Most delays seem to repeat "one note" why not 3? Why not the last 15 second of what you played?


A delay should repeat everything you played, some time in the future of when you played it.  

Imagine a tape recording what you're playing.  A delay is just reading the tape shortly after it was recorded and playing it back... all of what you played is recorded and played back.  Digital delay and BBD approximate this through sampling but do the same thing.  It can't discriminate between one note and 3, it's dealing with a continuous time series input and a continuous (or approximate) time series output.


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## ICTRock

that part is true, first in first out ... in a 100% wet mix you're only hearing the delay and it will be everything you input just after the overall delay time takes place. because most delay is played with a dry-favored mix the "delay" you hear is the last bit of music the length of the delay time


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## ICTRock

so help me if you complicate this wanting to discuss feed forward delay vs feed back delay


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## Harry Klippton

I don't even know what that means


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## ICTRock

Harry Klippton said:


> I don't even know what that means


single repeat vs multiple repeats.


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## ICTRock

took a minute to find a clean version of this but meant to use this since the thread started


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## chongmagic

What should I do with all of the pedals I have built, I think I have 150? Probably sold 50 of them.

I have had to stop since I have run out of places to store them all.


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## fig

ICTRock said:


> single repeat vs multiple repeats.


Like the 4-head Hydra?


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## swyse

chongmagic said:


> What should I do with all of the pedals I have built, I think I have 150? Probably sold 50 of them.
> 
> I have had to stop since I have run out of places to store them all.


Sounds like you need more places to store them all! 150 pedals could make some lovely wall art, maybe you need those shelves like JHS.


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## benny_profane

Ask @jjjimi84 what to do with extra pedals.


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## Coda

Here’s a serious one: when using SMD components (4 J201, for example) that have already been attached to adapter boards, should/can I keep the boards attached to each other and install them in one row on the PCB? Or should I separate them?…


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## Robert

Coda said:


> Here’s a serious one: when using SMD components (4 J201, for example) that have already been attached to adapter boards, should/can I keep the boards attached to each other and install them in one row on the PCB? Or should I separate them?…



There's no reason you shouldn't be able to unless the designer did something weird like connect one of the pins to a common copper plane.


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## swelchy

benny_profane said:


> Ask @jjjimi84 what to do with extra pedals.


He's gonna say build a spare room with shelves to store them!


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## aefpv

chongmagic said:


> What should I do with all of the pedals I have built, I think I have 150? Probably sold 50 of them.
> 
> I have had to stop since I have run out of places to store them all.


I have wondered the same thing. I have sold several, but some of them may be less desired. I have pondered going to our local music store and seeing if any of the students would enjoy them. Certainly, I would donate them to the budding musician.


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## Ctrl4Smilerz

Why do I see some builds use a single stereo (TRS) jack for a mono pedal? I assume this has to do with grounding but can't the seem thing be achieved with a mono jack?


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## Diynot

Ctrl4Smilerz said:


> Why do I see some builds use a single stereo (TRS) jack for a mono pedal? I assume this has to do with grounding but can't the seem thing be achieved with a mono jack?


Can totally be chalked up to what’s available either in personal stash or at the vendors. Less likely the pedal has a battery option and the ring of the TRS connects the power supply ground when the cable is inserted. Helps save on battery life
Edit: if this is in addition to the standard in/out jacks, then the pedal might have expression pedal capabilities


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## swyse

Ctrl4Smilerz said:


> Why do I see some builds use a single stereo (TRS) jack for a mono pedal? I assume this has to do with grounding but can't the seem thing be achieved with a mono jack?


They cost the same or close enough for me that I usually get stereo jacks because I find they grab more securely with the additional contact.


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## spi

Ctrl4Smilerz said:


> Why do I see some builds use a single stereo (TRS) jack for a mono pedal? I assume this has to do with grounding but can't the seem thing be achieved with a mono jack?


This allows you to wire it so the battery disconnects when nothing is plugged into the input.


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## Oh_Discordia!

Coda said:


> Why do we need another TS clone when the original circuit isn’t even all that good?…


i keep selling my TS's and then forgetting why and buying another, and then realizing that i dont like them and the cycle repeats


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## Pauleo1214

When the batteries start to go, do you press harder on the remote control?


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## Feral Feline

Harry Klippton said:


> Most delays seem to repeat "one note" why not 3? Why not the last 15 second of what you played?


The EHX 16-Second Delay can do all that. Nels Cline uses one.


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## SillyOctpuss

Pauleo1214 said:


> When the batteries start to go, do you press harder on the remote control?



No it's best to take them out of the remote and rub them in your hands for a minute or two then reinstall and push the button really hard.


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## Coda

Feral Feline said:


> The EHX 16-Second Delay can do all that. Nels Cline uses one.



I believe Robert Fripp used one (or two) with the later version of Frippertronics too…


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## Bricksnbeatles

Coda said:


> I believe Robert Fripp used one (or two) with the later version of Frippertronics too…


He owned the original two-footswitch “16 Second Digital Delay”
The 3-footswitch one is a pseudo-reissue that only has 1000ms of true delay or 16 seconds of plain looping capability.
There’s also not really evidence that he actually ever used one. EHX marketed the og 16 second digital delay as “a Fripp in a box” without any authorization from him, so he requested they give him one for free. They refused, so he bought one, but it never appeared in his live rig. When he moved away from revox tape machines for frippertronics he started using a pair of TC electronics rackmount digital delays. I don’t recall what he initially started using for soundscapes, but it was also a pair of rackmount units.


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## fig

thewintersoldier said:


> How does a cap get melted? Especially when it's no where near pot legs.


Heat? 🤷‍♂️


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## fig

thewintersoldier said:


> So many unanswered questions?! I generally solder components on the other side of the board. Am I doing it wrong? I'm starting to question if I'm breathing right at this point 🧐


Come to think of it, I can answer your question...at least in the case of _one_ melty cap..my own...

No pot legs in sight! However, I had to re-direct the input wire to the other side of the enclosure and this cap was fairly close (though admittedly not so close it deserved the torture I unleashed upon it) to the wire pad. There's a pic over on my "what's fig destroying this week" (aka Stuff thread..).

Avoidable? Certainly! Apocalyptic? Hardly....but I try not to sweat the small stuff


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## MichaelW

Coda said:


> Here’s a serious one: when using SMD components (4 J201, for example) that have already been attached to adapter boards, should/can I keep the boards attached to each other and install them in one row on the PCB? Or should I separate them?…


Depends on where you got them.....see my "Fingers" Build report.....ugh.....found out the hard way. (Note, with the Aion adapters, separate them and don't let them touch.......)


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## ICTRock

thewintersoldier said:


> How do people like Zappa's music? Asking for a friend.


traumatic brain injury


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## PangeaDestructor

Was gonna post a question just like this, logged on and the perfect thread is at the top.

How do I tell which IC pins are which on this schematic?

Another one - I'm not seeing 15v _anywhere_, including where the schematic says 15v. Curious if that's a problem with my build or with my reading of this.


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## benny_profane

PangeaDestructor said:


> Was gonna post a question just like this, logged on and the perfect thread is at the top.
> 
> How do I tell which IC pins are which on this schematic?
> 
> Another one - I'm not seeing 15v _anywhere_, including where the schematic says 15v. Curious if that's a problem with my build or with my reading of this.


The VFE schematics are pretty barebones. There’s no indication of pin numbering on that schem. The 15v line (I believe) comes from the SPS daughterboard with the jacks, switching, and charge pump. It’s and input to the circuit.


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## Bricksnbeatles

thewintersoldier said:


> How do people like Zappa's music? Asking for a friend.


It’s good, and therefore enjoyable. Very easily


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## fig

PangeaDestructor said:


> Was gonna post a question just like this, logged on and the perfect thread is at the top.
> 
> How do I tell which IC pins are which on this schematic?
> 
> Another one - I'm not seeing 15v _anywhere_, including where the schematic says 15v. Curious if that's a problem with my build or with my reading of this.


I usually compare the data sheet to the drawing. Vcc and GND, the input (inverting and non-inverting or +/-) and output.


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## Passinwind

thewintersoldier said:


> How do people like Zappa's music? Asking for a friend.


Shaken, not stirred.


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## spi

PangeaDestructor said:


> Was gonna post a question just like this, logged on and the perfect thread is at the top.
> 
> How do I tell which IC pins are which on this schematic?
> 
> Another one - I'm not seeing 15v _anywhere_, including where the schematic says 15v. Curious if that's a problem with my build or with my reading of this.


For pins you should just refer to the chip's data sheet, it will show you which pins are ins, outs, and powers.

For 15V I assume that it assumes you're using a 15V power supply, because there's no charge pump in the circuit.  This circuit should work just fine at 9V, or you could use an external pcb with a charge pump to increase the voltage in (or if you have a pedal power supply that lets you increase voltage you could use that ).


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## benny_profane

spi said:


> For pins you should just refer to the chip's data sheet, it will show you which pins are ins, outs, and powers.
> 
> For 15V I assume that it assumes you're using a 15V power supply, because there's no charge pump in the circuit.  This circuit should work just fine at 9V, or you could use an external pcb with a charge pump to increase the voltage in (or if you have a pedal power supply that lets you increase voltage you could use that ).


The SPS pedals have a charge pump on the daughterboard. @PangeaDestructor Are you building a project bought from VFE, or are you working from that schematic with your own project?


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## szukalski

thewintersoldier said:


> How do people like Zappa's music? Asking for a friend.


In copious amounts, preferably in live recordings.


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## chongmagic

thewintersoldier said:


> How do people like Zappa's music? Asking for a friend.



I feel the same way about Pearl Jam and Nirvana.


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## szukalski

Some people just don’t like copious amounts of marmite on toast. With cheese. And pineapple.


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## andare

thewintersoldier said:


> How do people like Zappa's music? Asking for a friend.


How do people not like Zappa? There's so much good stuff and it's so diverse. You don't have to be a die-hard fan and like everything. Even I can't stand some of his stuff but so much if it is amazing IMO.
Maybe I can recommend some tracks of you tell me what you're into?

Now how do people like Prince's music?


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## chongmagic

I'll be honest with you, I love his music. I do. I'm a Michael Bolton fan. For my money, I don't know if it gets any better than when he sings "When a Man Loves a Woman".


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## Bricksnbeatles

thewintersoldier said:


> I still love you my guy!
> View attachment 30944


I love you too bruh 🥰
Even if our music tastes are polar opposites 😂


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## chongmagic

thewintersoldier said:


> I don't like pearl jam either. But you didn't answer the question 🥴
> 
> Grew up with it being force fed down my throat like so much of the 60/70s. I say the same thing about pink flyod. I appreciate the talent and that people dig it but I'm still trying to figure out why I'm supposed to like it? Its funny because when someone says they don't like a band I do I don't instantly throw out something they like and basically say I know you are but what am I😂. Man, thinking for yourself and forming your own tastes can be real hard sometimes 😩. Still love y'all.



Some of his instrumental stuff, just has always blown me away. Watermelon in Easter Hay is probably one of my favorite songs of all. Of course I like his music, but even more for me is that he didn't give a shit what other people thought and always followed what he loved to do.


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## Big Monk

andare said:


> Now how do people like Prince's music?



I mean, it's alright.


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## chongmagic

andare said:


> How do people not like Zappa? There's so much good stuff and it's so diverse. You don't have to be a die-hard fan and like everything. Even I can't stand some of his stuff but so much if it is amazing IMO.
> Maybe I can recommend some tracks of you tell me what you're into?
> 
> Now how do people like Prince's music?


I heard he made great pancakes.


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## szukalski

The thing I like about Zappa, the same that I love about the artist Szukalski, is the strong vision and unrelenting productivity to achieve this. There is something inside them, driving on their creativity at its core. You may not like the output but you can still admire the craftsmanship.


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## Harry Klippton

andare said:


> How do people not like Zappa? There's so much good stuff and it's so diverse. You don't have to be a die-hard fan and like everything. Even I can't stand some of his stuff but so much if it is amazing IMO.
> Maybe I can recommend some tracks of you tell me what you're into?
> 
> Now how do people like Prince's music?


I haven't listened to a lot of Zappa but to me it's the musical equivalent of an inside joke that I'm not in on. It seems like, from my uninformed perspective, that at least part of the appeal of his work is the relative complexity, which is a huge turnoff, and there's an undercurrent of comedy or cleverness that I don't appreciate either


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## benny_profane

Harry Klippton said:


> I haven't listened to a lot of Zappa but to me it's the musical equivalent of an inside joke that I'm not in on. It seems like, from my uninformed perspective, that at least part of the appeal of his work is the relative complexity, which is a huge turnoff, and there's an undercurrent of comedy or cleverness that I don't appreciate either


I've never really thought of him / his music that way, but that's a very interesting take.


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## Big Monk

Music, and who likes what, is all about personal preference.


Harry Klippton said:


> I haven't listened to a lot of Zappa but to me it's the musical equivalent of an inside joke that I'm not in on. It seems like, from my uninformed perspective, that at least part of the appeal of his work is the relative complexity, which is a huge turnoff, and there's an undercurrent of comedy or cleverness that I don't appreciate either



He has a lot of more straight ahead music I prefer more. I’m really A fan of Hot Rats and Weasels Ripped my Flesh and not much else save for the song Black Napkins.


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## andare

That's what I said, he made so much stuff you're bound to find something you'll like but it's the same with me and Prince. I just don't like it even though I can appreciate the talent.
There's nothing we can do it say to make you like something. The thing with Zappa is, many people think he was a shock jock or something but he also wrote orchestral music, jazz, rock, fusion, funny monologues etc. I don't think anybody comes close to that diversity.


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## Harry Klippton

szukalski said:


> The thing I like about Zappa, the same that I love about the artist Szukalski, is the strong vision and unrelenting productivity to achieve this. There is something inside them, driving on their creativity at its core. You may not like the output but you can still admire the craftsmanship.


What exactly is that vision with regards to Zappa?


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## steviejr92

So this is one that I’ve been wanting to ask and it’s pretty simple…..I need/want(my girls going to kill me) a clean tube amp. Right now I’m using an orange crush 20 and tbh I love it but I’ve noticed using all these pedals is that I need again or “want” a clean platform. I’ve been looking at the fender blues juniors for my first tube amp but damn their expensive! So my question is does anyone know of a great tube amp that isn’t so damn expensive and will give me what I want? 🤔


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## benny_profane

andare said:


> I don't think anybody comes close to that diversity.


John Zorn?

Edit: @Bricksnbeatles interested to hear your thoughts.


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## benny_profane

steviejr92 said:


> So this is one that I’ve been wanting to ask and it’s pretty simple…..I need/want(my girls going to kill me) a clean tube amp. Right now I’m using an orange crush 20 and tbh I love it but I’ve noticed using all these pedals is that I need again or “want” a clean platform. I’ve been looking at the fender blues juniors for my first tube amp but damn their expensive! So my question is does anyone know of a great tube amp that isn’t so damn expensive and will give me what I want? 🤔


For a little guy, I really like the Fender Champ circuit.


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## Bricksnbeatles

Harry Klippton said:


> What exactly is that vision with regards to Zappa?


Pretty hard to describe if you’re not super familiar with his work, but this should give an idea:






						Project/Object concept - Zappa Wiki Jawaka
					






					wiki.killuglyradio.com
				









						Conceptual Continuity - Zappa Wiki Jawaka
					






					wiki.killuglyradio.com
				




As a complete Zappa obsessive, I could give you suggestions if you ever feel like checking out some of his work that might appeal to you. His discography is so absurdly vast, yk


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## steviejr92

benny_profane said:


> For a little guy, I really like the Fender Champ circuit.


Fender champ circuit? 🤔


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## benny_profane

steviejr92 said:


> Fender champ circuit? 🤔


Very simple, low-wattage tube circuit. Don't know anything about the Fender reissues, but there are plenty of options based on this:


			https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/Files/Fender/Fender_champ_5f1_schem.pdf


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## steviejr92

benny_profane said:


> Very simple, low-wattage tube circuit. Don't know anything about the Fender reissues, but there are plenty of options based on this:
> 
> 
> https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/Files/Fender/Fender_champ_5f1_schem.pdf


Idk if I’m there yet lol Im scared to touch tube circuits


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## benny_profane

steviejr92 said:


> Idk if I’m there yet lol Im scared to touch tube circuits


I meant clones and repros if you didn't want to make one.


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## steviejr92

Ahh ok I see now I just looked them up they’re like 1200 bucks that’s a little out of my price range haha


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## Harry Klippton

Bricksnbeatles said:


> Pretty hard to describe if you’re not super familiar with his work, but this should give an idea:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Project/Object concept - Zappa Wiki Jawaka
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wiki.killuglyradio.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conceptual Continuity - Zappa Wiki Jawaka
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wiki.killuglyradio.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a complete Zappa obsessive, I could give you suggestions if you ever feel like checking out some of his work that might appeal to you. His discography is so absurdly vast, yk


But even if there's _something_ in his catalog I dig, I have to judge it by his whole body of work yeah? That means I don't like it I guess 🤷


----------



## Big Monk

Bricksnbeatles said:


> Pretty hard to describe if you’re not super familiar with his work, but this should give an idea:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Project/Object concept - Zappa Wiki Jawaka
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wiki.killuglyradio.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conceptual Continuity - Zappa Wiki Jawaka
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wiki.killuglyradio.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a complete Zappa obsessive, I could give you suggestions if you ever feel like checking out some of his work that might appeal to you. His discography is so absurdly vast, yk



A lot of that is woo-woo perpetuated by Zappa himself though. 

When he was good, he was awesome. All that conceptual continuity nonsense was a bit much. 

Again, it’s all about what YOU like, not trying to explain to other people why THEY should like it. 

I don’t like grunge but for many it is important to them. I don’t likeTGP waste time trying to get people on board with what I like if they don't already.


----------



## benny_profane

thewintersoldier said:


> I'm not a big fan of zeppelin either. Singing about vikings and lord of the rings is one thing, but to many songs about citrus and fluids and wangs and banging. A couple cool riffs though.


Robert Plant could've been replaced with a keyboard and I'd've been fine with that.


----------



## Bricksnbeatles

Big Monk said:


> Again, it’s all about what YOU like, not trying to explain to other people why THEY should like it.


100%
I was just linking info about his purported “vision”


----------



## Harry Klippton

This is turning into that music hot takes thread from a couple years ago that I can't find right now


----------



## benny_profane

steviejr92 said:


> Ahh ok I see now I just looked them up they’re like 1200 bucks that’s a little out of my price range haha


If you're just looking for a small practice tube amp, the Monoprice tube amps are really not bad at all. Maybe require a bit of tweaking, but definitely not bad especially given the price (especially on sale).


----------



## steviejr92

I will look more into these I’m vaguely familiar with them!


----------



## Harry Klippton

I spent some time looking at the LT1054 datasheet and the duocast schematic today but I still don't really understand how it makes 27v


----------



## steviejr92

I’m going to look into these as well thanks for the input!


----------



## spi

steviejr92 said:


> Ahh ok I see now I just looked them up they’re like 1200 bucks that’s a little out of my price range haha


Isn't that monoprice tube amp some kind of cheap champ clone?

edit:  (just saw this was a duplicate answer)


----------



## steviejr92

So Ive been looking at those but as @thewintersoldier says the headroom might be a problem and how well does it perform as a pedal platform?


----------



## Big Monk

Harry Klippton said:


> I spent some time looking at the LT1054 datasheet and the duocast schematic today but I still don't really understand how it makes 27v









The diode and cap strings.


----------



## steviejr92

I mean then again Im playin inside and don’t need to blow my house down haha


----------



## benny_profane

Harry Klippton said:


> I spent some time looking at the LT1054 datasheet and the duocast schematic today but I still don't really understand how it makes 27v








						Simulcast capacitor voltage ratings
					

Beyond those indicated to be 35v, what voltage rating do the other caps in the simulcast need to be?




					forum.pedalpcb.com


----------



## Big Monk

steviejr92 said:


> So Ive been looking at those but as @thewintersoldier says the headroom might be a problem and how well does it perform as a pedal platform?



Headroom doesn’t exist for small amps.


----------



## steviejr92

I’m looking at the 15 watt mono price and I think I’m liking it


----------



## steviejr92

thewintersoldier said:


> The silverface champ is perfect. I had a 77 and not a days goes by I regret selling it. I made a great profit but at the end of the day I lost my ass.


that price tag though! Remember i still need to feed my pedal building habit! Hahaha


----------



## spi

thewintersoldier said:


> end of the day I lost my ass


Is that how your career started?   Looking for that lost ass.


----------



## giovanni

steviejr92 said:


> So this is one that I’ve been wanting to ask and it’s pretty simple…..I need/want(my girls going to kill me) a clean tube amp. Right now I’m using an orange crush 20 and tbh I love it but I’ve noticed using all these pedals is that I need again or “want” a clean platform. I’ve been looking at the fender blues juniors for my first tube amp but damn their expensive! So my question is does anyone know of a great tube amp that isn’t so damn expensive and will give me what I want? 🤔


I think it depends. If you want to use a lot of pedals you may need significant clean headroom and that is usually not cheap. The cheapest option is probably the Fender Hot Rod deluxe. I wouldn’t go below that wattage if you plan to use a ton of overdrive, modulation and delay. The deluxe reverb is also a great choice.


----------



## ICTRock

if you're aiming small, Blackheart Little Giant is 5 watts of mostly clean. if you're shooting for more watts, whatever that cheap Chinese rebadged Laney combo amp is


----------



## giovanni

ICTRock said:


> if you're aiming small, Blackheart Little Giant is 5 watts of mostly clean. if you're shooting for more watts, whatever that cheap Chinese rebadged Laney combo amp is


I have a Little Giant and it is quite clean. I do find it a bit dull sounding though.


----------



## steviejr92

So I’ve caved in and bought a blues junior just got it home from the local music store tested it at the store thing is practically brand new can’t wait to plug it up!


----------



## Big Monk

giovanni said:


> I have a Little Giant and it is quite clean. I do find it a bit dull sounding though.



Single Ended amps that are mostly clean won’t have a lot of character. 

Have you thought about tweaking the tone stack?


----------



## Harry Klippton

steviejr92 said:


> View attachment 30955
> 
> So I’ve caved in and bought a blues junior just got it home from the local music store tested it at the store thing is practically brand new can’t wait to plug it up!


Well that escalated quickly


----------



## steviejr92

Harry Klippton said:


> Well that escalated quickly


I just want to say truly…from the bottom of my heart…..this place is a bad influence 🤣


----------



## Oh_Discordia!

steviejr92 said:


> I’m looking at the 15 watt mono price and I think I’m liking it


I have that one - traded 2 of my homebuilt pedals for it.   I retubed it and its friggin excellent, great breakup, clean for as loud as I need.   Plus an effects loop and 1w switch (although Im not sure its actually that low).   Blues jr went into the amp closet and this one is occupying its spot.     I've heard conflicting thoughts on what its based on.   any idea?


----------



## Oh_Discordia!

steviejr92 said:


> View attachment 30955
> 
> So I’ve caved in and bought a blues junior just got it home from the local music store tested it at the store thing is practically brand new can’t wait to plug it up!


Solid choice!  enjoy!


----------



## steviejr92

Lowtide said:


> Solid choice!  enjoy!


yeah dude I totally caved in! I mean for 500 you can’t beat it and it’s pretty much brand spankin new!


----------



## ICTRock

giovanni said:


> I have a Little Giant and it is quite clean. I do find it a bit dull sounding though.


you get a single preamp stage and a tmb tone stack ... the proper approach would be to add at least a cathode follower ahead of the tone stack and a gain recovery stage after ... but this is the way of two tube lunchbox amps


----------



## Big Monk

ICTRock said:


> you get a single preamp stage and a tmb tone stack ... the proper approach would be to add at least a cathode follower ahead of the tone stack and a gain recovery stage after ... but this is the way of two tube lunchbox amps



I’m having this discussion in parallel with another forum member. 

The Little Giant is basically a Vibro Champ with no trem and an EL84. 

I have a similar amp built off a Valve Junior board.


----------



## giovanni

Big Monk said:


> Single Ended amps that are mostly clean won’t have a lot of character.
> 
> Have you thought about tweaking the tone stack?


I have. But I am not ready to mess with high voltage stuff. So I bought a different amp instead


----------



## Big Monk

giovanni said:


> I have. But I am not ready to mess with high voltage stuff. So I bought a different amp instead



If you are looking to sell it, hit me up.


----------



## steviejr92

thewintersoldier said:


> I hope no one ever suggests you try any substance from a street pharmacist ☠️🪦


Sorry I’ve been at the corner buying stuff from this fender guy….I need to get my act together 🤣


----------



## MichaelW

thewintersoldier said:


> One thing to keep in mind is the idea of a low wattage tube amp AND being a clean pedal platform is really hard to find. Most small tube amps have very little headroom and it's worse if you use humbuckers or hotter pickups. I would suggest something like the new fender vibro champs. I had a silverface champ and it was awesome and would stay clean most of the way up the volume. It's a loud clean 5 watts. As an added bonus they have digital reverb and while not as lush as tube spring verb is better than nothing as the originals had no reverb. I've seen them going used around 699.


This....

If what you want is a clean pedal platform to let your pedals shine then unless you're really playing low volume, you're going to need some headroom. Meaning, probably at least 12-15 watts or in the "Fender Blackface Princeton" range. (That would be an excellent choice btw).

25 watts is probably better. This part of the reason I've moved mostly to the digital modeling domain. My wife has a condition where she can be hypersensitive to loud noises and even from across the other side of the house me cranking out riffs to "Custard Pie" on my tube amp just isn't going to fly anymore. 

The UAD Apollo system is simply astounding at how close it can sound and feel like a real amp. In my "MOST HUMBLE OPINION" heads and shoulders above anything else out there in the digital modeling world for studio applications (E.g., Nueral, Helix, Kemper). But even then, only certain amp models, there's some real dogs in their line up too. (I hate the Plexi model, and the 55 Tweed model) But 99% of the time I use the Fuchs Overdrive Supreme model, clean channel, which is just a great clean pedal platform.

Having said all that, here's a real unintuitive suggestion I'm going to make. There was recently a thread about Dumble amps (and a lot of dumping on them). The one thing I really like about "Dumble-style" amps is not the super saturated gain channel but rather the big bold fat clean sounds you can get. Makes sense since the original amp D made was a modified Bassman head for Robben Ford.

Most of the Dumble clones out there are stupid expensive but there is one really really cool amp that I've been eyeing. The VHT-D-Fifty.
It's a point to point hand wired clone of a Dumble-esque circuit. But I'm mainly interested in it as a clean pedal platform. Basically a dual 6L6 50 watt amp. I'd probably never use the gain side, but just the clean channel. The heads can be had for around $900, which is pretty ridiculous for PTP hand wired amp. (Note that it doesn't solve MY particular volume issue hahaha.)

Another unintuitive suggestion I'm going to make, is the Mesa Boogie Mark 5:25. I sold mine because I only ever used the clean channel. Oh but WHAT a clean channel. Like most Boogie amps, it's "option overkill", too many damn knobs, and toggles, pull this push that, which I really tired of. But the clean channel is the same circuit as the Boogie Lonestar, which is one of the best clean tones ever, especially the 6L6 version. awesome pedal platform. I really regret selling it, but they can be had used for a reasonable price.

This is the amp I currently use, Revv D20. It was designed to be an extremely neutral sounding clean pedal platform with a built in Torpedo Cab IR/Reactive Load/Digital interface. It's actually quite a killer sounding little 20 watt amp out of the box and can be further dialed in with some better tubes. My problem with it (aside from just being a fickle gear slut) is that it's a little TOO neutral sounding. I can dial in some Blackface Deluxe type sounds or some Bassman clean sounds but it never really quite gets there.

I think maybe if we work backwards on your question, starting with what your budget is, it would help narrow down what you're looking for. There are LOTS of choices out there these days at every price range.

Edit: Dang, late to the party as always....Congrats on the Blues Junior snag! There's a huge rabbit hole you can fall into with that amp, lots of useful mods available for it, dedicated forums, etc.


----------



## giovanni

Mesa Boogie is a great shout! I played a Fillmore a few years ago and was blown away. One of the best clean sounds I’ve ever tried. 

+1 to getting some more constraints on the search before we start throwing boutique amps into the mix


----------



## HamishR

MichaelW said:


> This....
> 
> If what you want is a clean pedal platform to let your pedals shine then unless you're really playing low volume, you're going to need some headroom. Meaning, probably at least 12-15 watts or in the "Fender Blackface Princeton" range. (That would be an excellent choice btw).
> 
> 25 watts is probably better. This part of the reason I've moved mostly to the digital modeling domain. My wife has a condition where she can be hypersensitive to loud noises and even from across the other side of the house me cranking out riffs to "Custard Pie" on my tube amp just isn't going to fly anymore.
> 
> The UAD Apollo system is simply astounding at how close it can sound and feel like a real amp. In my "MOST HUMBLE OPINION" heads and shoulders above anything else out there in the digital modeling world for studio applications (E.g., Nueral, Helix, Kemper). But even then, only certain amp models, there's some real dogs in their line up too. (I hate the Plexi model, and the 55 Tweed model) But 99% of the time I use the Fuchs Overdrive Supreme model, clean channel, which is just a great clean pedal platform.
> 
> Having said all that, here's a real unintuitive suggestion I'm going to make. There was recently a thread about Dumble amps (and a lot of dumping on them). The one thing I really like about "Dumble-style" amps is not the super saturated gain channel but rather the big bold fat clean sounds you can get. Makes sense since the original amp D made was a modified Bassman head for Robben Ford.
> 
> Most of the Dumble clones out there are stupid expensive but there is one really really cool amp that I've been eyeing. The VHT-D-Fifty.
> It's a point to point hand wired clone of a Dumble-esque circuit. But I'm mainly interested in it as a clean pedal platform. Basically a dual 6L6 50 watt amp. I'd probably never use the gain side, but just the clean channel. The heads can be had for around $900, which is pretty ridiculous for PTP hand wired amp. (Note that it doesn't solve MY particular volume issue hahaha.)
> 
> Another unintuitive suggestion I'm going to make, is the Mesa Boogie Mark 5:25. I sold mine because I only ever used the clean channel. Oh but WHAT a clean channel. Like most Boogie amps, it's "option overkill", too many damn knobs, and toggles, pull this push that, which I really tired of. But the clean channel is the same circuit as the Boogie Lonestar, which is one of the best clean tones ever, especially the 6L6 version. awesome pedal platform. I really regret selling it, but they can be had used for a reasonable price.
> 
> This is the amp I currently use, Revv D20. It was designed to be an extremely neutral sounding clean pedal platform with a built in Torpedo Cab IR/Reactive Load/Digital interface. It's actually quite a killer sounding little 20 watt amp out of the box and can be further dialed in with some better tubes. My problem with it (aside from just being a fickle gear slut) is that it's a little TOO neutral sounding. I can dial in some Blackface Deluxe type sounds or some Bassman clean sounds but it never really quite gets there.
> 
> I think maybe if we work backwards on your question, starting with what your budget is, it would help narrow down what you're looking for. There are LOTS of choices out there these days at every price range.
> 
> Edit: Dang, late to the party as always....Congrats on the Blues Junior snag! There's a huge rabbit hole you can fall into with that amp, lots of useful mods available for it, dedicated forums, etc.


I used to have a Fender Prosonic when they first came out. I liked it. But in the end it was the "clean" channel I used almost exclusively - it sounded fantastic. Cranked it was better than most amp's dirty channels.

Then I had (actually still have) a Badcat Hot Cat 2x12 combo. Stupidly heavy and the dirty channel got old after a while, but again the clean channel - with just a volume knob and the global Cut knob - is glorious. Cranked or clean it's a beautiful, punchy sound which takes pedals well.


----------



## steviejr92

MichaelW said:


> This....
> 
> If what you want is a clean pedal platform to let your pedals shine then unless you're really playing low volume, you're going to need some headroom. Meaning, probably at least 12-15 watts or in the "Fender Blackface Princeton" range. (That would be an excellent choice btw).
> 
> 25 watts is probably better. This part of the reason I've moved mostly to the digital modeling domain. My wife has a condition where she can be hypersensitive to loud noises and even from across the other side of the house me cranking out riffs to "Custard Pie" on my tube amp just isn't going to fly anymore.
> 
> The UAD Apollo system is simply astounding at how close it can sound and feel like a real amp. In my "MOST HUMBLE OPINION" heads and shoulders above anything else out there in the digital modeling world for studio applications (E.g., Nueral, Helix, Kemper). But even then, only certain amp models, there's some real dogs in their line up too. (I hate the Plexi model, and the 55 Tweed model) But 99% of the time I use the Fuchs Overdrive Supreme model, clean channel, which is just a great clean pedal platform.
> 
> Having said all that, here's a real unintuitive suggestion I'm going to make. There was recently a thread about Dumble amps (and a lot of dumping on them). The one thing I really like about "Dumble-style" amps is not the super saturated gain channel but rather the big bold fat clean sounds you can get. Makes sense since the original amp D made was a modified Bassman head for Robben Ford.
> 
> Most of the Dumble clones out there are stupid expensive but there is one really really cool amp that I've been eyeing. The VHT-D-Fifty.
> It's a point to point hand wired clone of a Dumble-esque circuit. But I'm mainly interested in it as a clean pedal platform. Basically a dual 6L6 50 watt amp. I'd probably never use the gain side, but just the clean channel. The heads can be had for around $900, which is pretty ridiculous for PTP hand wired amp. (Note that it doesn't solve MY particular volume issue hahaha.)
> 
> Another unintuitive suggestion I'm going to make, is the Mesa Boogie Mark 5:25. I sold mine because I only ever used the clean channel. Oh but WHAT a clean channel. Like most Boogie amps, it's "option overkill", too many damn knobs, and toggles, pull this push that, which I really tired of. But the clean channel is the same circuit as the Boogie Lonestar, which is one of the best clean tones ever, especially the 6L6 version. awesome pedal platform. I really regret selling it, but they can be had used for a reasonable price.
> 
> This is the amp I currently use, Revv D20. It was designed to be an extremely neutral sounding clean pedal platform with a built in Torpedo Cab IR/Reactive Load/Digital interface. It's actually quite a killer sounding little 20 watt amp out of the box and can be further dialed in with some better tubes. My problem with it (aside from just being a fickle gear slut) is that it's a little TOO neutral sounding. I can dial in some Blackface Deluxe type sounds or some Bassman clean sounds but it never really quite gets there.
> 
> I think maybe if we work backwards on your question, starting with what your budget is, it would help narrow down what you're looking for. There are LOTS of choices out there these days at every price range.
> 
> Edit: Dang, late to the party as always....Congrats on the Blues Junior snag! There's a huge rabbit hole you can fall into with that amp, lots of useful mods available for it, dedicated forums, etc.


I ended up getting a fender blues junior I love it!


----------



## fig

steviejr92 said:


> I ended up getting a fender blues junior I love it!


Even after you’ve bought, played, fell in love with, modded, and eventually sold after years of recording platinum tracks through it….we’d still be recommending amps to you. It’s easier to just to roll with it.


----------



## fig

btw, the Magnatone Twilighter is a groove tuber. Also, I briefly had a Mesa Boogie 15/25/35 that I would have still been using had the dealer not tried to _fix_ the brand new amp twice and fail. It‘s a very tight amp.


----------



## steviejr92

fig said:


> Even after you’ve bought, played, fell in love with, modded, and eventually sold after years of recording platinum tracks through it….we’d still be recommending amps to you. It’s easier to just to roll with it.


I’ve come to learn that you can’t fight this place, once you’ve entered this forum…there is no turning back…..😈


----------



## steviejr92

fig said:


> btw, the Magnatone Twilighter is a groove tuber. Also, I briefly had a Mesa Boogie 15/25/35 that I would have still been using had the dealer not tried to _fix_ the brand new amp twice and fail. It‘s a very tight amp.


Magnatone twilighter? I’m afraid to google this cause I’m afraid I’m going to love it….🤣


Update: I looked it up….why…..why did I do this to myself?


----------



## MichaelW

fig said:


> btw, the Magnatone Twilighter is a groove tuber. Also, I briefly had a Mesa Boogie 15/25/35 that I would have still been using had the dealer not tried to _fix_ the brand new amp twice and fail. It‘s a very tight amp.


Ooooo those new Magnatones are really sweet!


----------



## fig

MichaelW said:


> Ooooo those new Magnatones are really sweet!


You know it! The stereo version is over the top, but I can’t help but imagine a RIC plugged into one…


----------



## Harry Klippton

fig said:


> You know it! The stereo version is over the top, but I can’t help but imagine a RIC plugged into one…


Do it


----------



## fig

Harry Klippton said:


> Do it


I actually shifted my ric-o-bass yesterday. It’s bound for climate-controlled storage along with the Marshall stack. I considered encasing it (not the Marshall…it’s bulletproof) in carbonite but that stuff is harder to source than a NOS SAD1024. 
You’ve got me seriously looking at the 12er (like that was a challenge eh?), though I doubt I’ll by them together. I hopefully have an upcoming down payment on a home to consider!


----------



## Harry Klippton

fig said:


> I actually shifted my ric-o-bass yesterday. It’s bound for climate-controlled storage along with the Marshall stack. I considered encasing it (not the Marshall…it’s bulletproof) in carbonite but that stuff is harder to source than a NOS SAD1024.
> You’ve got me seriously looking at the 12er (like that was a challenge eh?), though I doubt I’ll by them together. I hopefully have an upcoming down payment on a home to consider!


Can we see the Marshall?


----------



## fig

Harry Klippton said:


> Can we see the Marshall?


This is not long before I boxed it up last year.


----------



## fig

Yep, I see that darned Voodoo PSU that crapped out about that time too! 

That uke sounded great through the JVM


----------



## Robert

What's that tweed thang to the right of the Marshall?   Blues Jr?


----------



## fig

Robert said:


> What's that tweed thang to the right of the Marshall?   Blues Jr?


I think that’s the Champ cab..looks smaller than the Junior..

Edit: in fact I toasted the pcb and a resistor for the 2-watter housed in it just the other day…fond memories


----------



## HamishR

For anyone looking at the fender BF RI amps I would strongly recommend watching the Psionic videos on Youtube on how to mod them for longer life. If you can build a pedal you can do this - it's very straightforward and will make a big difference to your amp. Possibly the biggest improvement you can make is to get the filament current off the PCB. For some reason Fender decided to connect the PT filament winding to the PCB and from there to the tubes. They went to all of the trouble of hand-wiring the filaments (quite well too) to the individual tube sockets but all  of that current goes via the PCB. It's an easy thing to disconnect the wiring from the board - it attaches with clips - and solder the filament wires from the PT directly to the last tube socket.

This will save your PCB from getting cooked and your amp from failing. Changing the filter caps is easy too.


----------



## swyse

HamishR said:


> For anyone looking at the fender BF RI amps I would strongly recommend watching the Psionic videos on Youtube on how to mod them for longer life. If you can build a pedal you can do this - it's very straightforward and will make a big difference to your amp. Possibly the biggest improvement you can make is to get the filament current off the PCB. For some reason Fender decided to connect the PT filament winding to the PCB and from there to the tubes. They went to all of the trouble of hand-wiring the filaments (quite well too) to the individual tube sockets but all  of that current goes via the PCB. It's an easy thing to disconnect the wiring from the board - it attaches with clips - and solder the filament wires from the PT directly to the last tube socket.
> 
> This will save your PCB from getting cooked and your amp from failing. Changing the filter caps is easy too.


Thanks for the tip, I have all the supplies here needed for the mod except the amp.


----------



## HamishR

Yeah you'll probably need the amp.


----------



## swyse

HamishR said:


> Yeah you'll probably need the amp.


This is devastating news.


----------



## cwsquared

HamishR said:


> For anyone looking at the fender BF RI amps I would strongly recommend watching the Psionic videos on Youtube on how to mod them for longer life. If you can build a pedal you can do this - it's very straightforward and will make a big difference to your amp. Possibly the biggest improvement you can make is to get the filament current off the PCB. For some reason Fender decided to connect the PT filament winding to the PCB and from there to the tubes. They went to all of the trouble of hand-wiring the filaments (quite well too) to the individual tube sockets but all  of that current goes via the PCB. It's an easy thing to disconnect the wiring from the board - it attaches with clips - and solder the filament wires from the PT directly to the last tube socket.
> 
> This will save your PCB from getting cooked and your amp from failing. Changing the filter caps is easy too.


I was just watching some of those YT videos yesterday.  I don't even have one of those amps, so I am not sure why.  But good knowledge to keep stashed for later.


----------



## HamishR

swyse said:


> This is devastating news.


I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Together I'm sure we can work through it. Be strong.

BTW you're not Richard Ayoade by any chance are you?


----------



## HamishR

cwsquared said:


> I was just watching some of those YT videos yesterday.  I don't even have one of those amps, so I am not sure why.  But good knowledge to keep stashed for later.


If you're like me it's just good to know this stuff. Plus I love the way he speaks. It's as if it's all he can do to fix one more sad, inadequate amp.


----------



## cwsquared

HamishR said:


> If you're like me it's just good to know this stuff. Plus I love the way he speaks. It's as if it's all he can do to fix one more sad, inadequate amp.


That may well be it.  Never know when that bit of previously useless knowledge comes on handy.


----------



## andare

I have a *PNP circuit* (say a Tone Bender) in a true bypass pedal.
I power the pedal with a standard center negative power supply, the DC jack is connected to a *voltage inverter (TC1044SCPA)*, which sends -9V and positive ground to the circuit board. Everything works and it's daisy chainable.

The LED takes +9V from the DC jack and negative ground from the 3PDT footswitch.

*How do I ground the board input on bypass using the footswitch*? Can I send it to negative ground using the standard true bypass wiring?

I ask because I'm not sure even after examining several such schematics like the Sunflower.


----------



## daeg

andare said:


> *How do I ground the board input on bypass using the footswitch*? Can I send it to negative ground using the standard true bypass wiring?


Negative ground? Ground is just ground mang.


----------



## andare

daeg said:


> Negative ground? Ground is just ground mang.


Having no knowledge of electronics, the concept of ground eludes me. All I know is it's the black wire.

I see circuits referred to as having positive or negative ground and the two shall never mix.

Anyway that means I can wire up the 3pdt as usual, right?


----------



## Harry Klippton

What is the appeal of indie rock?


----------



## Mentaltossflycoon

Harry Klippton said:


> What is the appeal of indie rock?


The feeling of not being mainstream while taking zero risks. "We're different, man. We don't sound different but we are."


----------



## Robert

andare said:


> I see circuits referred to as having positive or negative ground and the two shall never mix.
> 
> Anyway that means I can wire up the 3pdt as usual, right?



You're correct, there are circuits that have positive ground and they do not play nice daisy chained with standard (negative) ground effects.

That is the purpose of the charge pump.    The entire circuit runs on -9V, so the ground potential stays at a nice pedalboard-friendly 0V.

0V is positive relative to -9V, so the circuit sees this as a positive ground.


----------



## Feral Feline

Harry Klippton said:


> What is the appeal of indie rock?



It's boulder than other types of rock'n'roll?


----------



## giovanni

Harry Klippton said:


> What is the appeal of indie rock?


At this point I don’t really know what the difference is? I think Indie rock was a bit of a response to overproduced 90s post grunge music, kind of like a return to some sort of roots? Or maybe it was just fringe at the time because of the kind of “rock” that was on the radio? I don’t know man, I’m too old for the $&@t!!


----------



## iamjackslackof

What exactly is the purpose of grounding the circuit input when the effect is bypassed? I see this often, and it *seems* like a good idea, but I can't articulate exactly why this is done. I've also seen schematics for 3PDT breakout boards that ground both circuit input and output. Why or why not do both, if it's worth doing for the input?


----------



## giovanni

iamjackslackof said:


> What exactly is the purpose of grounding the circuit input when the effect is bypassed? I see this often, and it *seems* like a good idea, but I can't articulate exactly why this is done. I've also seen schematics for 3PDT breakout boards that ground both circuit input and output. Why or why not do both, if it's worth doing for the input?


I think grounding the input ensures that the input voltage drops to zero in bypass. If not, you may have a floating voltage and when you turn the pedal on you may hear a popping noise.


----------



## Feral Feline

@giovanni, I thought punk was the reaction to overproduced corporate rock and grunge was a reaction to punk's becoming mainstream overproduced pop... So what is/was the reaction to overproduced grunge?


What you said about floating voltage I understand, but where does that floating voltage come from?

@iamjackslackof — IIRC It's to do with the caps, which store voltage. This is why sometimes when you first power up your board and hit a switch and it pops but then doesn't pop again the next time you turn it on (unless the next time is after powering down your board and firing up your rig again the next day).

Input is usually the problem, but sometimes the problem is how the circuit at the output interacts with whatever comes _after_ it. "Gee this pedal started popping after I moved it to be after my fuzz, and it never popped before..."

There are so many variables in play, and so many different standards that pedals are built to. Boss has a reputation to uphold and can afford teams of engineers, whereas a little one-builder bootiki type operation will build whatever sounds good and if your boutique pedal pops? Builder might just say "Gee it didn't pop with any of my gear or my friend's setup — we extensively tested it, must be something wrong with your rig."
Extensively tested = Tried it with a Strat and a LesPaul.

I think RG Keen understands more and does a better job explaining it than I ever will.







_So much depends 
upon 

a red radial 
capacitor

charged, make gain
hotter

beside the white
silkscreen_

— Wilhelm "Crybaby" Wilhelmscreame​


----------



## Harry Klippton

I wasn't trying to be snarky and hoping someone legit answers my question with what they like about indie rock


----------



## Bricksnbeatles

Harry Klippton said:


> What is the appeal of indie rock?


Indie rock, as with all genre classifications, is an absolutely worthless designator of musical content. As such, the appeal of indie rock is entirely dependent on the track.


----------



## dawson

Harry Klippton said:


> What is the appeal of indie rock?



Judging by the attendance of my band's last show, there is little-to-no appeal of indie rock.


----------



## giovanni

Maybe taking a step back about indie rock would help: it’s a bit hard to really define it as a genre in my opinion, except as a reaction to something that came before. So in a sense a lot of music used to be “indie” and then became mainstream. Just like when punk was a reaction and then it became mainstream! That’s just to say that people use the term to designate such a broad number of musical genres that we may need to get more specific 

About that floating voltage: I have no idea tbh, I read that on some forum… 
Jokes aside, I think maybe it’s possible to have static on the floating parts of the circuit that when connected creates a discharge on the input? That’s probably what people refer to when they talk about floating voltage. Which makes me think that it also probably depends on specific conditions (like pedal chain or even humidity level).


----------



## iamjackslackof

Feral Feline said:


> @iamjackslackof — IIRC It's to do with the caps, which store voltage. This is why sometimes when you first power up your board and hit a switch and it pops but then doesn't pop again the next time you turn it on (unless the next time is after powering down your board and firing up your rig again the next day).
> 
> Input is usually the problem, but sometimes the problem is how the circuit at the output interacts with whatever comes _after_ it. "Gee this pedal started popping after I moved it to be after my fuzz, and it never popped before..."
> 
> There are so many variables in play, and so many different standards that pedals are built to. Boss has a reputation to uphold and can afford teams of engineers, whereas a little one-builder bootiki type operation will build whatever sounds good and if your boutique pedal pops? Builder might just say "Gee it didn't pop with any of my gear or my friend's setup — we extensively tested it, must be something wrong with your rig."
> Extensively tested = Tried it with a Strat and a LesPaul.
> 
> I think RG Keen understands more and does a better job explaining it than I ever will.



Thanks for the reply! That makes sense. 

However, RG Keen says this: "For mechanical switches, put a 100K to 4.7M (exact value does not matter) resistor from the "outboard" end of both the input and output capacitors to ground. This keeps the ends of the capacitors pulled to the right voltage all the time, and cures the leakage problem. No capacitor clicks." Do you (or anyone) happen to know what he means by "outboard" end of the input/output caps? Surely he means the end closest to ground? But I have never seen anyone do this in a pedal before, which is odd, since Keen is kind of a pedal deity, and I would expect something simple like this that helps reduce/eliminate one common form of popping to be used far and wide.


----------



## Feral Feline

iamjackslackof said:


> Thanks for the reply! That makes sense.
> 
> However, RG Keen says this: "For mechanical switches, put a 100K to 4.7M (exact value does not matter) resistor from the "outboard" end of both the input and output capacitors to ground. This keeps the ends of the capacitors pulled to the right voltage all the time, and cures the leakage problem. No capacitor clicks." Do you (or anyone) happen to know what he means by "outboard" end of the input/output caps? Surely he means the end closest to ground? But I have never seen anyone do this in a pedal before, which is odd, since Keen is kind of a pedal deity, and I would expect something simple like this that helps reduce/eliminate one common form of popping to be used far and wide.


I think he means outboard as being the leg of the cap closest to the jack, not necessarily to ground for the cap itself.

Also, there are some circuits — JFET boosters, Fetzer Valve, Alembic Stratoblaster, for example (only ones I could think of) — that don't even have an input cap. 


Here's the Chop Shop schematic:





The first resistor R1 is a pull-down resistor, but on the output a pull-down may not be needed because of C6 and R10, not to mention that the next pedal in the chain ("Pedal B" and only if on) will likely have a pull-down resistor on its front end providing an escape path for any floating voltage on the end of the Chop Shop or whatever circuit is preceeding Pedal B. Even if it weren't for C6 and R10, pretend they're omitted, is the Volume pot ( the last thing before the jack in many circuits) not acting to some extent in pulling down stray current?


----------



## szukalski

Harry Klippton said:


> I wasn't trying to be snarky and hoping someone legit answers my question with what they like about indie rock


I’m not a big indie fan (Frightened Rabbit aside, that’s some great stuff) but I do like the abundant mid-range in the mix. 

I always found indie was the whole “we are cool by not trying to be cool” image. Whilst trying very hard to capture that image. “Look how much I don’t care”.


----------



## szukalski

Bricksnbeatles said:


> Indie rock, as with all genre classifications, is an absolutely worthless designator of musical content. As such, the appeal of indie rock is entirely dependent on the track.


Totally agree. Genre aside, it’s the artist transcending the playing experience and breaking through the wall to let the music flow!


----------



## spi

iamjackslackof said:


> What exactly is the purpose of grounding the circuit input when the effect is bypassed? I see this often, and it *seems* like a good idea, but I can't articulate exactly why this is done. I've also seen schematics for 3PDT breakout boards that ground both circuit input and output. Why or why not do both, if it's worth doing for the input?


Aside from the noise of switching the circuit on, I've heard another reason is that some circuits can cause noise in the bypassed signal path, even with true bypass, by their vicinity to the switch, and grounding the input will help avoid this issue.


----------



## Robert

iamjackslackof said:


> What exactly is the purpose of grounding the circuit input when the effect is bypassed?



It ensures that the input coupling capacitor is discharged while the circuit is in bypass, otherwise if voltage accumulates it will cause a pop in the signal path when the pedal is switched on. 

Also, for high gain circuits it serves as a form of circuit "mute" ...     A wildly self-oscillating circuit like the Fuzz Factory™ will bleed into the bypassed signal through the ground path, grounding the input stops the oscillation while the circuit is bypassed.


----------



## Aentons

Harry Klippton said:


> I wasn't trying to be snarky and hoping someone legit answers my question with what they like about indie rock


When I think Indie Rock. I think about bands like Modest Mouse and Built to Spill and the bands that came out of Sub Pop after "Alternative" started to become Pop Rock. Indie was a reaction to  bands getting signed and produced by the major lables to churn out hits that fit a mold. Indie was a way for artist to ensure more creative freedom by sticking with independent labels. So what's good about Indie Rock is that you (potentially) get a wider range of creativity. Indie is now doing what Alternative did before it and turning into mostly junk. Its all just classic rock already anyway.


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

I apologize if this one has been asked and answered already. 

*"WTF?"*


----------



## Deperduci

I didn't want to know Chuck... somethings are just... NOOOPE!!


----------



## Diynot

Why are all expression pedals TRS? I get that you are essentially hijacking three pot lugs, but if a lot of the time the pot in question is simply a variable resistor, there is no need for the ring connection, right? I ask because I am wondering how feasible/useful it would be to make a 1/4in plug attached to a vactrol that could be driven by the Wavelord to be used as an expression control.


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

Very do-able.  

In the case where you might need a 3-terminal (TRS) interface, you could connect the Vactrol's LDR between Tip & Sleeve and connect a fixed resistor, something in the neighborhood of 10K to 100K, between Tip & Ring.


----------



## Deperduci

I thought they were TRS(the 2 "hot" or tip wires)was because only 1 cable/jack is involved and how would you send the signal back?


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

This should explain it all:

https://www.ramblefx.com/expression


----------



## andare

Ok here's a big learning moment for me and a duh! moment for you.

I know the value of volume pots in guitars affects how bright they are. The more resistance they have, the less high end bleeds to ground and the brighter the guitar is.
So I suppose this applies to pedals as well.

If I want to make a pedal brighter, should I use a larger volume pot? And vice versa.

So a Fuzz Face has a lot of bass and it uses a 470/500k volume pot to retain high end. Makes sense.

Why does Analogman reduce the bass by using a 1uF input cap only to darken the pedal by using a 250k volume pot?
Doesn't that essentially make the pedal mid-heavy?


----------



## Deperduci

that's what I thought... constant voltage out, pedal replaces normally seen knob on the rheostat/potentiometer, return voltage determines volume. other than the rotating foot pedal, should be amongst the easiest to build, IE got a housing rest is brain donor hard.


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

Here's the low-down on volume controls:
On guitars, Volume controls interact with the pickups, the cable and the next device in the chain.  
Pickups have a DC resistance, that's the number we see quoted in advertisements. "Our hot humbuckers are wound to 12K."  Pickups also have an AC impedance and that varies with frequency.  All magnetic pickups have an electrical resonance, usually in the 3KHz to 8KHz range.  At resonance, the pickup signal is strongest, and the pickup's output impedance is also at its highest.  Any loading of the pickup, whether it's from the Volume control, Tone control, cable, or the stuff on your pedal board, will affect the pickup's frequency response, especially at resonance.  It's the resonant peak that is responsible for a large part of a pickup's brightness.  Higher value Volume controls provide a lighter load to the pickups and let more of the "sparkle" come thru.
When we turn the Volume control down, we're putting some resistance between the pickups and the cable, and everything downstream of the cable.  The Volume control's resistance and the cable capacitance form a low-pass filter which darkens the tone.  This is reason for installing a Treble Bleed on a guitar's Volume control.  The Treble Bleed helps compensate for the high freq loss in the cable.  It's not perfect, but it helps.
When we introduce resistance between the pickups and the first (active) pedal in the chain, we can affect that pedal's behavior.  The Fuzz Face is a prime example.  It has a very low, non-linear input impedance.  It loads the pickups, reducing the treble and creating distortion right at the input of the pedal.  When a pedal advertisement touts "responsive to guitar volume," that's one of the reasons why. 

In summary, larger value guitar Volume controls can result in a brighter tone and stronger interaction with pedals.

OK, so much for guitar Volume controls, What about pedal volume controls?  
Most pedals have their Volume control at the very end of the circuit.  Notable exceptions are any pedal with buffered bypass.  Pedals generally have a much lower output impedance than pickups.  They are less susceptible to loading from the pedal's Volume control.  But, the pedal's Volume control will form a low-pass filter with the capacitance of any cable that comes after it.  A larger value Volume control will have a lower cutoff freq.  The filtering effect is strongest when the volume control is at the electrical midpoint.  That's noon with a B-taper pot, but more like 2:30 with an A-taper pot.  At 7:00 and 5:00, the volume control's resistance is zero and then it's not part of a low-pass filter.  The original Fuzz Faces did not have tone controls or any filtering at the end.  Pedal builders installed large value (500K) Volume controls so that they'd get some filtering from the Volume control and the cable capacitance.

Larger value pedal Volume controls result in a darker tone *IF* the pedal's Volume control is at the very end of the circuit.  The pedal's Volume control can also interact with the next pedal in the chain, much like a guitar's volume control.

Lotta words, I know.  Hopefully it makes sense.


----------



## andare

Chuck D. Bones said:


> Here's the low-down on volume controls:
> On guitars, Volume controls interact with the pickups, the cable and the next device in the chain.
> Pickups have a DC resistance, that's the number we see quoted in advertisements. "Our hot humbuckers are wound to 12K."  Pickups also have an AC impedance and that varies with frequency.  All magnetic pickups have an electrical resonance, usually in the 3KHz to 8KHz range.  At resonance, the pickup signal is strongest, and the pickup's output impedance is also at its highest.  Any loading of the pickup, whether it's from the Volume control, Tone control, cable, or the stuff on your pedal board, will affect the pickup's frequency response, especially at resonance.  It's the resonant peak that is responsible for a large part of a pickup's brightness.  Higher value Volume controls provide a lighter load to the pickups and let more of the "sparkle" come thru.
> When we turn the Volume control down, we're putting some resistance between the pickups and the cable, and everything downstream of the cable.  The Volume control's resistance and the cable capacitance form a low-pass filter which darkens the tone.  This is reason for installing a Treble Bleed on a guitar's Volume control.  The Treble Bleed helps compensate for the high freq loss in the cable.  It's not perfect, but it helps.
> When we introduce resistance between the pickups and the first (active) pedal in the chain, we can affect that pedal's behavior.  The Fuzz Face is a prime example.  It has a very low, non-linear input impedance.  It loads the pickups, reducing the treble and creating distortion right at the input of the pedal.  When a pedal advertisement touts "responsive to guitar volume," that's one of the reasons why.
> 
> In summary, larger value guitar Volume controls can result in a brighter tone and stronger interaction with pedals.
> 
> OK, so much for guitar Volume controls, What about pedal volume controls?
> Most pedals have their Volume control at the very end of the circuit.  Notable exceptions are any pedal with buffered bypass.  Pedals generally have a much lower output impedance than pickups.  They are less susceptible to loading from the pedal's Volume control.  But, the pedal's Volume control will form a low-pass filter with the capacitance of any cable that comes after it.  A larger value Volume control will have a lower cutoff freq.  The filtering effect is strongest when the volume control is at the electrical midpoint.  That's noon with a B-taper pot, but more like 2:30 with an A-taper pot.  At 7:00 and 5:00, the volume control's resistance is zero and then it's not part of a low-pass filter.  The original Fuzz Faces did not have tone controls or any filtering at the end.  Pedal builders installed large value (500K) Volume controls so that they'd get some filtering from the Volume control and the cable capacitance.
> 
> Larger value pedal Volume controls result in a darker tone *IF* the pedal's Volume control is at the very end of the circuit.  The pedal's Volume control can also interact with the next pedal in the chain, much like a guitar's volume control.
> 
> Lotta words, I know.  Hopefully it makes sense.


Thank you Chuck!

Most of it went whoosh over my head but basically volume pot resistance works opposite in pedals, more resistance means a darker pedal right?

Time to test that on a breadboard to see it in action. Let's see if I can darken a Fuzzrite and brighten a Fuzz Face.


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

If you want to simulate the capacitance of a long cable, stick a 100pF to 330pF cap from the pedal output to GND.


----------



## Diynot

Here’s another one that I only just thought ab whilst messing with my Sonic Reducer pedal that leaks a high pitched whine even when in bypass. Why does the common footswitch wiring ground the input of the circuit when in bypass, when conceivably those pedals that may exhibit clock/lfo noise or digital whine when in bypass might benefit (presumably) from grounding the circuit out when in bypass. I guess to answer part of my own question, sometimes the noise is passed from those chips by virtue of proximity to the wiring/insulation.


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

There are a few reasons for grounding the input to a pedal circuit when in bypass mode.  
1. High-gain circuits can pick up and amplify radio interference when their inputs are left floating.  That amplified noise can then bleed into the bypass signal.
2. High-gain circuits can oscillate when their inputs are left floating.  The oscillation can then bleed into the bypass signal.
3. Grounding the input ensures that the input side of the input coupling cap has zero volts on it in bypass mode, which prevents popping when the stomp switch is toggled.  An anti-pop resistor serves the same purpose.

Everything inside the pedal is coupled to some degree due to proximity and shared power and ground.  We do what we can to minimize stray coupling by carefully routing the traces and wires, using a ground plane on the PCB, grounding the enclosure and pot bodies, etc.


----------



## music6000

Diynot said:


> Here’s another one that I only just thought ab whilst messing with my Sonic Reducer pedal that leaks a high pitched whine even when in bypass. Why does the common footswitch wiring ground the input of the circuit when in bypass, when conceivably those pedals that may exhibit clock/lfo noise or digital whine when in bypass might benefit (presumably) from grounding the circuit out when in bypass. I guess to answer part of my own question, sometimes the noise is passed from those chips by virtue of proximity to the wiring/insulation.


I was going to ask if the Input goes to Ground in Bypass to stop Bleed from the Circuit on your build.
It's a well known mod to do to older style pedals & standard practice nowadays!

Chuck answered it for you!


----------



## mhshizz

Chuck D. Bones said:


> Here's the low-down on volume controls:
> On guitars, Volume controls interact with the pickups, the cable and the next device in the chain.
> Pickups have a DC resistance, that's the number we see quoted in advertisements. "Our hot humbuckers are wound to 12K."  Pickups also have an AC impedance and that varies with frequency.  All magnetic pickups have an electrical resonance, usually in the 3KHz to 8KHz range.  At resonance, the pickup signal is strongest, and the pickup's output impedance is also at its highest.  Any loading of the pickup, whether it's from the Volume control, Tone control, cable, or the stuff on your pedal board, will affect the pickup's frequency response, especially at resonance.  It's the resonant peak that is responsible for a large part of a pickup's brightness.  Higher value Volume controls provide a lighter load to the pickups and let more of the "sparkle" come thru.
> When we turn the Volume control down, we're putting some resistance between the pickups and the cable, and everything downstream of the cable.  The Volume control's resistance and the cable capacitance form a low-pass filter which darkens the tone.  This is reason for installing a Treble Bleed on a guitar's Volume control.  The Treble Bleed helps compensate for the high freq loss in the cable.  It's not perfect, but it helps.
> When we introduce resistance between the pickups and the first (active) pedal in the chain, we can affect that pedal's behavior.  The Fuzz Face is a prime example.  It has a very low, non-linear input impedance.  It loads the pickups, reducing the treble and creating distortion right at the input of the pedal.  When a pedal advertisement touts "responsive to guitar volume," that's one of the reasons why.
> 
> In summary, larger value guitar Volume controls can result in a brighter tone and stronger interaction with pedals.
> 
> OK, so much for guitar Volume controls, What about pedal volume controls?
> Most pedals have their Volume control at the very end of the circuit.  Notable exceptions are any pedal with buffered bypass.  Pedals generally have a much lower output impedance than pickups.  They are less susceptible to loading from the pedal's Volume control.  But, the pedal's Volume control will form a low-pass filter with the capacitance of any cable that comes after it.  A larger value Volume control will have a lower cutoff freq.  The filtering effect is strongest when the volume control is at the electrical midpoint.  That's noon with a B-taper pot, but more like 2:30 with an A-taper pot.  At 7:00 and 5:00, the volume control's resistance is zero and then it's not part of a low-pass filter.  The original Fuzz Faces did not have tone controls or any filtering at the end.  Pedal builders installed large value (500K) Volume controls so that they'd get some filtering from the Volume control and the cable capacitance.
> 
> Larger value pedal Volume controls result in a darker tone *IF* the pedal's Volume control is at the very end of the circuit.  The pedal's Volume control can also interact with the next pedal in the chain, much like a guitar's volume control.
> 
> Lotta words, I know.  Hopefully it makes sense.


I still don't quite understand  phrases "it loads the pickups down" or "(thing) loads (previous thing in chain)". What does that mean, exactly?


----------



## giovanni

mhshizz said:


> I still don't quite understand  phrases "it loads the pickups down" or "(thing) loads (previous thing in chain)". What does that mean, exactly?


That’s pretty technical. Loading refers to how much current the next stage absorbs. Or to be more precise, how low the input impedance is. For guitar pickups you usually want the first stage to absorb as little current as possible otherwise the sound gets dark. Intuitively you can imagine that a passive pickup cannot provide a lot of current to the next stage because it is, well, passive. The technical explanation is more complicated and has to do with impedance mismatch and the frequency domain but I find that the intuitive one is pretty decent.


----------



## HamishR

Indie rock was what happened when you couldn't stand Def Lepers or Bon Jovi and wanted to listen to the Pixies instead. It was kinda like punk again except with weirder music. But of course the label is, indeed, meaningless these days. "Indie" comes from independent, as in "not on a major label". Again, meaningless these days. Just as "punk" no longer has any meaning. What passes for punk these days is nothing like the original. It has become its own corporate genre and I'm not sure how modern punk is any different from modern anything else!

Indie is the term people use these days when they used to say alternative.  But the genre thing is pretty meaningless. It's a kind of lazy shortcut to indicate which kind of noise we like. It's not great but what else do we have?


----------



## mhshizz

giovanni said:


> That’s pretty technical. Loading refers to how much current the next stage absorbs. Or to be more precise, how low the input impedance is. For guitar pickups you usually want the first stage to absorb as little current as possible otherwise the sound gets dark. Intuitively you can imagine that a passive pickup cannot provide a lot of current to the next stage because it is, well, passive. The technical explanation is more complicated and has to do with impedance mismatch and the frequency domain but I find that the intuitive one is pretty decent.


So when something is "loaded down" it's not being allowed to pass along as much current as it otherwise could?


----------



## giovanni

mhshizz said:


> So when something is "loaded down" it's not being allowed to pass along as much current as it otherwise could?


I think it means we are trying to absorb too much current from it, affecting high frequencies (the energy we are trying to absorb is not there and comes off the high frequencies first).


----------



## benny_profane

mhshizz said:


> So when something is "loaded down" it's not being allowed to pass along as much current as it otherwise could?







__





						What's all this Impedance Stuff About?
					

I'll keep the math to a bare minimum, but you can't describe impedance without a little math. When I was in college, the professor in an introductory course on circuit theory shared this anecdote: "As part of their oral exam, PhD electrical engineering students were asked to define the term...




					forum.pedalpcb.com


----------



## spi

I found this post helpful in understanding buffering and loading:
Buffers, impedance and other internet lore – Mr. Black (mrblackpedals.com)


----------



## Harry Klippton

What _is_ a zendrive?


----------



## mhshizz

giovanni said:


> I think it means we are trying to absorb too much current from it, affecting high frequencies (the energy we are trying to absorb is not there and comes off the high frequencies first).





benny_profane said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's all this Impedance Stuff About?
> 
> 
> I'll keep the math to a bare minimum, but you can't describe impedance without a little math. When I was in college, the professor in an introductory course on circuit theory shared this anecdote: "As part of their oral exam, PhD electrical engineering students were asked to define the term...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> forum.pedalpcb.com





spi said:


> I found this post helpful in understanding buffering and loading:
> Buffers, impedance and other internet lore – Mr. Black (mrblackpedals.com)



I truly appreciate all your efforts. Chuck's post seems to be above my head technically, while Mr Black's article features a painfully juvenile writing style and analogies I can't quite parse.

It seems this is a "me" problem, so I'll just go back to telling myself to not worry about and trust that people I respect behind the projects I like know what they're doing.


----------



## swyse

I was just thinking about something I always wondered but never was able to find out and remembered this thread.  I wanted to use a CA3130EZ in a rat style circuit, do I need to protect the input like one does with a standalone mosfet? Do I just use the standard Zener to ground at the input? Also wondered If I have a mosfet after different amplifier in the middle of a circuit, do I need the Zener there too?


----------



## andare

mhshizz said:


> I truly appreciate all your efforts. Chuck's post seems to be above my technically, while Mr Black's article features a painfully juvenile writing style and analogies I can't quite parse.
> 
> It seems this is a "me" problem, so I'll just go back to telling myself to not worry about and trust that people I respect behind the projects I like know what they're doing.


I'm with you, stuck between technical jargon above my pay grade and confusing metaphors.

A Fuzz Face cleans up because it has low impedance and therefore it loads the pickups?
Whereas a Tone Bender Mk2 has a buffer, i.e. the 1st transistor stage, so it doesn't clean up?

Or maybe I should just keep building by numbers and play my guitars...


----------



## giovanni

I think any gain pedal “cleans up” if you turn the volume down, in the sense that the sound gets cleaner because the overall gain is being reduced. The thing with the fuzz face is that when you do that, you are dramatically changing the relation between your pickup’s output impedance and the pedal’s input impedance, which ends up really affecting the sound in ways that people love. It’s a bit of a happy accident: the impedance mismatch is notoriously a “bug” not a feature (it goes against any EE 101 design practice) but it seems to work well in this case. Buffered pedals (or really any pedal with a high input impedance) don’t do that because even if you roll the guitar volume down, the pedal will not “load” the pickup; the pedal’s input impedance is still high enough to handle the changing impedance due to the volume roll off on the guitar side. 
It’s hard to understand this stuff without knowing the math because I don’t think there are really good equivalents in the mechanical world or in any other every day experience that could help with understanding. I could come up with some metaphors but they will most likely all fall short.


----------



## spi

giovanni said:


> I could come up with some metaphors but they will most likely all fall short.


High impedance input:  peeing into a toilet, you're going to make the water yellow.
Low impedance input:  peeing off a cliff, you're not going to make the water yellow.
Yellow is your highs.

That metaphor sounded better before I wrote it down.


----------



## benny_profane

@spi make sure you’re drinking enough water.


----------



## andare

spi said:


> High impedance input:  peeing into a toilet, you're going to make the water yellow.
> Low impedance input:  peeing off a cliff, you're not going to make the water yellow.
> Yellow is your highs.
> 
> That metaphor sounded better before I wrote it down.


No I get it now. The ocean is low impedance so you need a lot of pee to make it yellow.
The ocean loads your peen much more than a toilet. Eventually you fall off the cliff and you shatter on the shore. Then the garbage collectors pick up your pieces aka "cleanup."


----------



## giovanni

I often think about it in terms of water pressure. If your pipe gets wider, you will lose pressure. That’s what a pedal with low input impedance does: it’s a wider pipe than what you have before and thus your guitar signal loses high end (pressure in this analogy). On the other hand, a pedal with high input impedance is analog to a very narrow pipe so even if the one before is already pretty narrow, you won’t lose pressure. If we want to make the metaphor a bit more accurate, when it comes to electrical signal we have different pipes for different frequencies, and high end pipes are affected more than low end ones… am I making any sense?


----------



## Pauleo1214

Why are some transistors in TO-92 format and TO-18? Are all TO-92's silicon? Are some TO-18s silicon?


----------



## mhshizz

Am I crazy or was there a Product Requests subforum that has recently disappeared? Reading through the thread containing sort of an origin story of what became the Hen's Tooth was fascinating. Or am I gaslighting or Mandela effecting myself?


----------



## Bricksnbeatles

mhshizz said:


> Am I crazy or was there a Product Requests subforum that has recently disappeared? Reading through the thread containing sort of an origin story of what became the Hen's Tooth was fascinating. Or am I gaslighting or Mandela effecting myself?





			https://forum.pedalpcb.com/forums/wishlist/


----------



## mhshizz

Bricksnbeatles said:


> https://forum.pedalpcb.com/forums/wishlist/


Thanks. Not sure why it wasn't showing up in my list of forums before but it is now. #embarassing


----------



## Feral Feline

I had one (a question) but forgot it, so here's another one I came up with...

Most *PullDownResistor*s are 1M or 2M2, but I've got a shipload of 6M2 — is this too high of a PDR value, how will it affect the rest of the circuit? 

I read somewhere once that a PDR could be anywhere from 1M to 10M, but I can't find that reference again and whoever said it may have been full of bunk.

Sorry, I've been too lazy to do the math on input impedance etc... 

Can I use my 6M2 stash for PDRs?


----------



## fig

Feral Feline said:


> I had one (a question) but forgot it, so here's another one I came up with...
> 
> Most *PullDownResistor*s are 1M or 2M2, but I've got a shipload of 6M2 — is this too high of a PDR value, how will it affect the rest of the circuit?
> 
> I read somewhere once that a PDR could be anywhere from 1M to 10M, but I can't find that reference again and whoever said it may have been full of bunk.
> 
> Sorry, I've been too lazy to do the math on input impedance etc...
> 
> Can I use my 6M2 stash for PDRs?


I dunno, but I’m breadboarding later…I’ll try it (though I’m sure someone will let you know anyway).


----------



## fig

Did I say later? It’s 9:30…! We made Cuban chicken and rice (awesome btw Desi’s fav), which takes awhile but gee whiz!


----------



## Coda

fig said:


> Did I say later? It’s 9:30…! We made Cuban chicken and rice (awesome btw Desi’s fav), which takes awhile but gee whiz!



What did you use for the pull down resistor?…


----------



## fig

A Cubano chille?


----------



## steviejr92

Coda said:


> What did you use for the pull down resistor?…


Sounds like the rice acted as the PDR


----------



## steviejr92

fig said:


> A Cubano chille?


Ahhh Cubano Chile ofcourse...


----------



## fig

Feral Feline said:


> I had one (a question) but forgot it, so here's another one I came up with...
> 
> Most *PullDownResistor*s are 1M or 2M2, but I've got a shipload of 6M2 — is this too high of a PDR value, how will it affect the rest of the circuit?
> 
> I read somewhere once that a PDR could be anywhere from 1M to 10M, but I can't find that reference again and whoever said it may have been full of bunk.
> 
> Sorry, I've been too lazy to do the math on input impedance etc...
> 
> Can I use my 6M2 stash for PDRs?


Here was my rudimentary finding; yes Virginia, you _can_ use a 6m2Ω PDR…at least on a Burnin’ Rubber pedal (my personal breadboard of the Raincoat). I’ll just leave the 6m2 in there.


----------



## Feral Feline

Thanks Fig. I'll have to get my bench reorganised and hook up my oscilloscopes so I can learn to use them.


----------



## giovanni

Feral Feline said:


> I had one (a question) but forgot it, so here's another one I came up with...
> 
> Most *PullDownResistor*s are 1M or 2M2, but I've got a shipload of 6M2 — is this too high of a PDR value, how will it affect the rest of the circuit?
> 
> I read somewhere once that a PDR could be anywhere from 1M to 10M, but I can't find that reference again and whoever said it may have been full of bunk.
> 
> Sorry, I've been too lazy to do the math on input impedance etc...
> 
> Can I use my 6M2 stash for PDRs?


There should be no problem with that. Higher is probably better than lower (consider that an open circuit has infinite resistance).


----------



## Feral Feline

Thanks Giovanni. I got two packs of 100 or more, can't even recall... it's a LOT. They were so cheap, sitting on the counter at the til, so I bought 'em. How often do we pedal builders need a 6M2, though. So ... good to know I can use them up in some way.


----------



## andare

fig said:


> Did I say later? It’s 9:30…! We made Cuban chicken and rice (awesome btw Desi’s fav), which takes awhile but gee whiz!


I hope you chased that with a couple of Cuban sandwiches.
It's like putting a boost after a fuzz for extra oomph.

But back with pulldown resistors and eliminating pops. Let's if I understand this correctly:

>>>
While the effect is bypassed, the pulldown resistor at the input drains any stray voltage to ground so there's no pop on activation.
This is unnecessary at the output if there's a Volume pot because its lug 1 goes to ground so it accomplishes the same function. Otherwise another pulldown resistor last in the circuit can help.

The smaller the value of the pulldown resistor, the quicker voltage is drained to ground. Too low a value and you lose signal when the effect is on, so 1M is about the lowest we should go. Anything higher than that should also work but it will take longer to drain stray voltage.

Wiring the footswitch so it grounds the effect input on bypass is just an added level of safety against pops. Better safe than sorry.

Pops however can also have other causes like footswitch bounce and the LED, in which cases the above solutions will not work.
>>>

Is that right?


----------



## szukalski

Why does my tone not improve when I haven't shaved for a few days?
People here rave about fuzzy faces, all I get are dodgy looks.


----------



## SillyOctpuss

fig said:


> A Cubano chille?



This would have been an amplification stage in the recipe wouldn't it?


----------



## scheffehcs

I drill enclosures by hand and sometimes it gets sloppy. When this happens, I’ll drill the hole a little bigger, or try to drill a bit toward where the pot or switch wants to go. Like so: 


So my dumb question - is there anything bad about doing this??


----------



## Robert

Aside from the possibility of the pot wiggling around and working away at the solder joints, probably not.

Quite a few commercial pedals have oversized (or even long oval / slotted) holes for the hardware.


----------



## fig

scheffehcs said:


> I drill enclosures by hand and sometimes it gets sloppy. When this happens, I’ll drill the hole a little bigger, or try to drill a bit toward where the pot or switch wants to go. Like so: So my dumb question - is there anything bad about doing this??


That would somewhat depend upon your level of emotional investment.


----------



## Diynot

@Feral Feline weren’t we having a similar discussion in my thread ab my EUB preamp? I think what we came down to, based upon examination of the AMZ mosfet booster was that R1 set the input impedance. The combo of R1 and C1 set the frequency response. So for the AMZ booster, it had a 10M R1 and a 1nf C1 which has an impedance of 10M and a frequency response down to 15Hz. So an R1/pull down of 6.2M = an impedance of 6.2. You might want to see what your input cap value is and run some calculations to see how that effects the frequency response. Anyone feel free to point out any erroneous info I have passed off as actual knowledge of things.


----------



## Joben Magooch

Random question I just thought of while working on a project yesterday: How come most component values seem to be kind of "odd" numbers? 
(Not literally odd/even but just...not particularly "round") 

Take resistors for example. You'll often see values of 470R, 4.7K, 14.7K, 47K, 470K, etc....but then it seems like more "round" numbers like 500R, 5K, 15K, 50K, 500K are comparatively much less common. Or even more so for caps: I feel like I'm using 4.7nF or 47nF caps all the time, but almost never 5nF or 50nF, for instance...

So I guess basically I'm just wondering in theory how we got to that "scale". It feels like one of those things where it's like Celsius vs Fahrenheit or Metric vs Imperial where one tends to produce more "round" numbers than the other, but I'm not sure what the alternative would be here... Don't know if that question makes a lot of sense or not, but just kinda had that thought recently...


----------



## Bricksnbeatles

Joben Magooch said:


> Random question I just thought of while working on a project yesterday: How come most component values seem to be kind of "odd" numbers?
> (Not literally odd/even but just...not particularly "round")
> 
> Take resistors for example. You'll often see values of 470R, 4.7K, 14.7K, 47K, 470K, etc....but then it seems like more "round" numbers like 500R, 5K, 15K, 50K, 500K are comparatively much less common. Or even more so for caps: I feel like I'm using 4.7nF or 47nF caps all the time, but almost never 5nF or 50nF, for instance...
> 
> So I guess basically I'm just wondering in theory how we got to that "scale". It feels like one of those things where it's like Celsius vs Fahrenheit or Metric vs Imperial where one tends to produce more "round" numbers than the other, but I'm not sure what the alternative would be here... Don't know if that question makes a lot of sense or not, but just kinda had that thought recently...


I believe it’s so things don’t get mixed backwards. You’ll have 4.7 but not 7.4; 3.9 but not 9.3 etc


----------



## benny_profane

Joben Magooch said:


> Random question I just thought of while working on a project yesterday: How come most component values seem to be kind of "odd" numbers?
> (Not literally odd/even but just...not particularly "round")
> 
> Take resistors for example. You'll often see values of 470R, 4.7K, 14.7K, 47K, 470K, etc....but then it seems like more "round" numbers like 500R, 5K, 15K, 50K, 500K are comparatively much less common. Or even more so for caps: I feel like I'm using 4.7nF or 47nF caps all the time, but almost never 5nF or 50nF, for instance...
> 
> So I guess basically I'm just wondering in theory how we got to that "scale". It feels like one of those things where it's like Celsius vs Fahrenheit or Metric vs Imperial where one tends to produce more "round" numbers than the other, but I'm not sure what the alternative would be here... Don't know if that question makes a lot of sense or not, but just kinda had that thought recently...











						E series of preferred numbers - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Joben Magooch

benny_profane said:


> E series of preferred numbers - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org


Huh. Well, that's pretty much exactly what I was looking for! How interesting


----------



## giovanni

scheffehcs said:


> I drill enclosures by hand and sometimes it gets sloppy. When this happens, I’ll drill the hole a little bigger, or try to drill a bit toward where the pot or switch wants to go. Like so: View attachment 33386
> So my dumb question - is there anything bad about doing this??


I use a rasp to enlarge the hole in the right direction when that happens so I have more control on how much larger I make it.


----------



## hamerfan

It's the second DC power in socket that died on me. Do I make something wrong?


----------



## benny_profane

hamerfan said:


> It's the second DC power in socket that died on me. Do I make something wrong?


Can you elaborate? I don’t understand what you’re saying. Did the power supply fail? Did the socket mechanically fall apart? Did the socket stop supplying power to the board? Etc.


----------



## hamerfan

I should have told you I only built two pedals up to now and both worked. 
The second socket,  I think, was faulty from the beginning, only the battery worked. The socket on the first build is now intermitting. The plug does not hold the jack properly.


----------



## giovanni

Where did you get it?


----------



## iamjackslackof

scheffehcs said:


> I drill enclosures by hand and sometimes it gets sloppy. When this happens, I’ll drill the hole a little bigger, or try to drill a bit toward where the pot or switch wants to go. Like so: View attachment 33386
> So my dumb question - is there anything bad about doing this??


Did you get the brushed look yourself or buy it that way? I've tried once to do a brushed aluminum with sandaper, but never got any real results. Any tips if you did it, or know places to but enclosures that are already brushed?


----------



## scheffehcs

iamjackslackof said:


> Did you get the brushed look yourself or buy it that way? I've tried once to do a brushed aluminum with sandaper, but never got any real results. Any tips if you did it, or know places to but enclosures that are already brushed?


I did it myself on a raw enclosure - I believe either 60 or 80 grit sandpaper. Thanks for noticing, I was surprised at how good it looked! I made sure I was wiping straight, and only wiped one way instead of back and forth/ up and down. Still there are some curved lines in there.


----------



## swyse

Is there any reason other than difficulty I wouldn’t want to add legs to my smd j201s to use for breadboard and vero board use?


----------



## swyse

swyse said:


> Is there any reason other than difficulty I wouldn’t want to add legs to my smd j201s to use for breadboard and vero board use?


Turns them into BJTs it turns out, can’t recommend. 

The writing on this one seemed a little sloppy so maybe it is fake, I’ll retest with my crisper looking ones to see tomorrow.


----------



## szukalski

Is there any reason why I’d want to deviate away from only having E12 resistors? 

There are a bunch of odd ball resistors in builds, could I just get away with using the closest from the E12 series? (Or making teepees).


----------



## giovanni

szukalski said:


> Is there any reason why I’d want to deviate away from only having E12 resistors?
> 
> There are a bunch of odd ball resistors in builds, could I just get away with using the closest from the E12 series? (Or making teepees).


I would just stick with standard values: measure a few and find the closest value to what you need.


----------



## Harry Klippton

How _do_ you measure for drilling off a PCB?


----------



## spi

Harry Klippton said:


> How _do_ you measure for drilling off a PCB?


I place the PCB on a paper, then poke a pencil through the holes that need to be drilled (for example the middle of each switch or pot).  Then for pots, offset where you made the mark by 16mm.  Then I can measure how a far apart each hole is and build a drill template.


----------



## Locrian99

Why when I’m building something and set something down, a diode, my wire cutters, a piece of wire, the nut and washer for the jack or pot.   I somehow always put it down in the worst possible spot and it takes me forever to find it even though I set it down 30 seconds ago, somehow it ends up under my printed schematic, and 3 bags of resistors.   And no the answer isn’t I need to keep a tidier workspace.


----------



## xlDino

Where tf can I get high quality jacks for the Power I/O module?! I feel like I’ve exhausted the internet looking for 3pin PCB mount jacks that fit the board.


----------



## homebrewtj

Locrian99 said:


> Why when I’m building something and set something down, a diode, my wire cutters, a piece of wire, the nut and washer for the jack or pot.   I somehow always put it down in the worst possible spot and it takes me forever to find it even though I set it down 30 seconds ago, somehow it ends up under my printed schematic, and 3 bags of resistors.   And no the answer isn’t I need to keep a tidier workspace.


This is my life- keys, hat, drink, daughter, everything.


----------



## homebrewtj

iamjackslackof said:


> Did you get the brushed look yourself or buy it that way? I've tried once to do a brushed aluminum with sandaper, but never got any real results. Any tips if you did it, or know places to but enclosures that are already brushed?


I sanded with 220, 320, 400, and 600 for this one:


----------



## homebrewtj

Stupid question and I probably already know the answer. If I don’t want to include a battery snap in a box, is it just as easy as not wiring it up and just using a mono input jack? Im thinking yes, right?

And on BYOC boards, I wouldn’t hook up the wire shown to the power Jack and battery snap, correct? 

Thanks.


----------



## Robert

xlDino said:


> Where tf can I get high quality jacks for the Power I/O module?! I feel like I’ve exhausted the internet looking for 3pin PCB mount jacks that fit the board.



I'm not sure if there's a premium brand, these are the ones I've always used and never had any issues with them.









						6.35mm 1/4" Right Angle Stereo Female Connector Thread Lock Panel Mount
					

Get It Fast - Same Day Shipping




					www.taydaelectronics.com
				








It even says so right here.


----------



## xlDino

Robert said:


> I'm not sure if there's a premium brand, these are the ones I've always used and never had any issues with them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6.35mm 1/4" Right Angle Stereo Female Connector Thread Lock Panel Mount
> 
> 
> Get It Fast - Same Day Shipping
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.taydaelectronics.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 35153
> It even says so right here.


Ugh, you mean to tell me I scoured this site for jacks and couldn’t find these, after I accidentally order the wrong ones… welp, I was warned this would happen…


----------



## steviejr92

Im afraid to ask literally _anything_ about programming the Terrarium....the fact that i said Terrarium and not Daisy seed lets you know how far i am from attempting it......


----------



## iamjackslackof

homebrewtj said:


> I sanded with 220, 320, 400, and 600 for this one:


Those turned out nice! Do you use a sanding block or by hand? Or have any other tricks to it? I never could get an even straight grain going, even with a sanding block.


----------



## fig

Do these pants make my butt look big?


----------



## music6000

iamjackslackof said:


> Those turned out nice! Do you use a sanding block or by hand? Or have any other tricks to it? I never could get an even straight grain going, even with a sanding block.


Nail the Sandpaper to the Bench & do straight single passes with the Enclosure.


----------



## steviejr92

fig said:


> Do these pants make my butt look big?


Read that and look at his profile pic


----------



## Robert

fig said:


> Do these pants make my butt look big?



Not at all honey, in fact your butt makes those pants look small!


----------



## fig

Thanks doll. 

My wife says I have no butt. I can't see back there, and TBH I'm okay with that.


----------



## Diynot

fig said:


> Thanks doll.
> 
> My wife says I have no butt. I can't see back there, and TBH I'm okay with that.


But if hindsight is 20/20, doesn’t that mean you should be able to see your ass clearly?


----------



## steviejr92

Diynot said:


> But if hindsight is 20/20, doesn’t that mean you should be able to see your ass clearly?


BOOM BABY! *DROPS MIC*


----------



## homebrewtj

iamjackslackof said:


> Those turned out nice! Do you use a sanding block or by hand? Or have any other tricks to it? I never could get an even straight grain going, even with a sanding block.


Thanks a lot. I just held the paper by hand. I’ve done woodworking forever, so it’s pretty natural for me. One thing you can do is to guide your outermost finger along the edge of the box to keep a straight line. If that makes sense.


----------



## Laundryroom David

homebrewtj said:


> Stupid question and I probably already know the answer. If I don’t want to include a battery snap in a box, is it just as easy as not wiring it up and just using a mono input jack? Im thinking yes, right?
> 
> And on BYOC boards, I wouldn’t hook up the wire shown to the power Jack and battery snap, correct?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> View attachment 35152



you have described my approach to building. Works fine. If you’re not using a battery or other switching involving the ring of the jack, then mono jacks work just fine.


----------



## Locrian99

Does this mean I have a problem?  I had 4 pedals in June.   Then I built my first kit that purple fuzz in the bottom row.   They’ve multiplied!  

 Note the strip boards in back deemed not cool enough to box lol.


----------



## Feral Feline

Here's a raw enclosure challenge:

- a nice even cross-hatch:







The old Bugatti's are really stunning. This one's a 1926 Type 37A and the engine is hand-scraped while the firewall is engine-turned (as are often the instrument panels in the cockpit).

I used to have an even nicer example of hand-scraped cross-hatching on an engine, but pic must be on my old computer thus the linked pic above. If I could get cross-hatch by hand an enclosure to the Molsheim Bugatti standard, I'd be an extremely happy man.

The Pur Sang crew in Argentina do a pretty good job of replicating the hand-scraping of yore...



I've tried sanding cross-hatch by hand, but a bench-grinder worked better...


----------



## andare

fig said:


> Thanks doll.
> 
> My wife says I have no butt. I can't see back there, and TBH I'm okay with that.


Deadlifts will give you a big butt. It's why all the girls at the gym do them. Also hip thrusts but those look too sex-like for my tastes.
Speaking of leg training, here's inspiration from the Quadfather himself. Skip to the end for the most stimulating part


----------



## Feral Feline

fig said:


> Thanks doll.
> 
> My wife says I have no butt. I can't see back there, and TBH I'm okay with that.



When I was managing a MTB team as well as racing, myself, we're all gearing up by the race van and somebody commented to me I had a small butt for such a sport; The young studly star-racer on my team said "He doesn't have a butt, his legs just go straight up into his back!" 🙀

I said "What the hell are you doing looking at my butt?"

He said "I'm forced to see it every time I lap you." 

OUCH!


If you've XC raced, then you know this type of view (pic off the net):


----------



## fig

Feral Feline said:


> When I was managing a MTB team as well as racing, myself, we're all gearing up by the race van and somebody commented to me I had a small butt for such a sport; The young studly star-racer on my team said "He doesn't have a butt, his legs just go straight up into his back!" 🙀
> 
> I said "What the hell are you doing looking at my butt?"
> 
> He said "I'm forced to see it every time I lap you."
> 
> OUCH!
> 
> 
> If you've XC raced, then you know this type of view (pic off the net):


Also, riding through a fart can cost you a few seconds. 🤢


----------



## szukalski

Nothing like racing with the wind up your freckle.


----------



## music6000

Feral Feline said:


> Here's a raw enclosure challenge:
> 
> - a nice even cross-hatch:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The old Bugatti's are really stunning. This one's a 1926 Type 37A and the engine is hand-scraped while the firewall is engine-turned (as are often the instrument panels in the cockpit).
> 
> I used to have an even nicer example of hand-scraped cross-hatching on an engine, but pic must be on my old computer thus the linked pic above. If I could get cross-hatch by hand an enclosure to the Molsheim Bugatti standard, I'd be an extremely happy man.
> 
> The Pur Sang crew in Argentina do a pretty good job of replicating the hand-scraping of yore...
> 
> 
> 
> I've tried sanding cross-hatch by hand, but a bench-grinder worked better...


Here's one I built from around 2016 on In House Eyelet Board:


----------



## cdwillis

How does the forward voltage of a diode related to the decibel level of the signal leaving? Say I have a hard clipping distortion circuit and I replace 1n4148 diodes that have a 0.7mv forward voltage with red LEDs that have a 1.8mv forward voltage. How many more decibels would be allowed through the diodes?


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

Not mV, Volts.  Vf for 1N4148 is around 0.7V = 700mV.  Also, the Vf you read in a datasheet or measure with a meter will not be the same as the clipping voltage, but it will be in the ballpark.  The dB difference is 20*LOG(Vf1/Vf2)  where LOG is base 10.  In this example, Vf1 = 1.8V and Vf2 = 0.7V.  Therefore, the dB increase going from 1N4148s to red LEDs is approx 8dB, which will be noticeably louder.  The tone will be different too because the knee of the I/V curves is different.


----------



## cdwillis

Ok. I have another question then. Bare in mind I haven't had a math class in a long long time. What do you mean by base 10 in that equation? If I see base 10 I assume it means a number system based on tens, vs something like binary based on two values or an octal system based on eight.


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

Do you know what LOG means?  If not, look it up.  There are three common LOG bases.  "Natural logarithms" are base e.  If you see LN(x) in an equation, it's a natural logarithm.  dB uses base 10 logarithms,represented as LOG(x). Octaves use base 2 logarithms, represented as LOG2(x).  They are all the same function, just different scale factors.

Log is the inverse of exponential, if that helps.   10 squared is 100.  LOG(100) = 2.


----------



## cdwillis

Ok, like a logarithmic pot versus a linear. I knew there were a couple different logarithmic tapers used in pots from watching Psionic Audio amplifier videos. At first I thought maybe you meant 20^10 (twenty to the tenth power). That's really helpful. I was trying to figure out if the LEDs would let enough signal through to use a full TMB EQ without killing the signal. Gotta take into consideration the minimum gain in the noninverting op amp gain stage beforehand.


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

You will probably want some make-up gain after the EQ.  Typical loss in a Fender/Marshall TMB is 10 to 20 dB, depending on settings.  Or you could stack LEDs or diodes to get a higher clipping voltage.


----------



## Harry Klippton

What's a harmonic percolator supposed to sound like? 
My only experience with playing one was a pedal my friend had from a small builder. I thought it sounded awful and made everything sound only worse.


----------



## cdwillis

That's pretty much what they sound like   

I have a friend that's built several. They sound somewhere between a fuzz and a distortion, probably because of the clipping diodes at the end. I keep saying I'm going to build one, but it keeps getting put on the back burner.


----------



## eh là bas ma

What is the effect used on bass at the beggining of this song (1996) ? enveloppe filters ? Which one ?


----------

