# PedalPCB Terrarium - Compact Daisy Development Platform



## Robert

6 x Potentiometers
4 x Toggle switches
2 x Footswitches
2 x Indicator LEDs
1 x Micro USB port (via Daisy Seed)


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## phi1

Is one ftsw for bypass (integrated relay bypass)?  Or digital buffered bypass?  Of course a 3PDT or relay bypass board could be used in addition or separate from the 2nd ftsw...


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## Robert

They're both programmable (all of the controls and both LEDs are), you can use them for whatever function you want. 

Since this is aimed at development (and also serves as a prototype) I didn't think true-bypass was particularly important....  in fact having digital bypass is a _very _useful tool since you have full control over what happens when you hit the switch.

I have my "Petal" set up with the same switching functionality as the Intelligent Relay Bypass module.   You could, of course, wire it up true-bypass (3PDT or relay board) if you prefer.

This also serves as a proof of concept / prototype for other designs.    I want to test basic functionality, signal path, and noise levels before going crazy and routing a big 1590DD multi-effects platform.     ?


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## daeg

omgomgomg

Very excited.


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## Chuck D. Bones

Can we get it with Stereo in and out?


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## Robert

Chuck D. Bones said:


> Can we get it with Stereo in and out?



Oh of course we are.   There will be several different versions with various control sets and enclosure sizes.

I just need to verify this circuit and layout to make sure I'm on the right track.


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## daeg

This makes me feel greedy to even suggest, but my dream would be something like this:

1590bb turned landscape
Top mounted jacks
5 pots on top row
4 toggle switches on middle row
3 footswitches on bottom row (1 for true bypass)
Expression pedal jack (6th pot input)


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## Danbieranowski

So stoked.


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## zgrav

Very nice layout for that board!  Tap tempo also seems like a possibility with the second footswitch.  For that matter, I guess the purpose of either footswitch can be changed with a toggle switch.  Crazy stuff on the way!


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## Dali

Those with coding capabilities will just go crazy. And that's a good thing!

With 263 PCBs in the Overdrive/Distorsion/Fuzz category, I think we're ready for something else!


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## Robert

zgrav said:


> Tap tempo also seems like a possibility with the second footswitch.



Yep, that's what I'm using it for right now.    I have a new Hydra algorithm running with tap tempo and time divisions.


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## Robert

Dali said:


> With 263 PCBs in the Overdrive/Distorsion/Fuzz category, I think we're ready for something else!



What are you suggesting, a digital fuzz?     ?


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## Ratimus

daeg said:


> This makes me feel greedy to even suggest, but my dream would be something like this:
> 
> 1590bb turned landscape
> Top mounted jacks
> 5 pots on top row
> 4 toggle switches on middle row
> 3 footswitches on bottom row (1 for true bypass)
> Expression pedal jack (6th pot input)


Fiiiive pots on tooooooop...
Four toggle switches,
Three stomp switches,
Two stereo outs,
And a jack to add expression with your foot.


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## Ratimus

Robert said:


> What are you suggesting, a digital fuzz?     ?


I'd love to mess around with such a thing. Multiband dirt with independent control over dynamic response for each band? FFT powered square wave re-synthesis added into the signal? Sounds like a blast.


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## cooder

I don't know much about this but the excitement is contagious!
Is it based on this here:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/electro-smith/daisy-an-embedded-platform-for-music


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## Nostradoomus

cooder said:


> I don't know much about this but the excitement is contagious!
> Is it based on this here:
> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/electro-smith/daisy-an-embedded-platform-for-music



Yep, looks like the unit will sit on headers on the board. Cool!


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## Robert

Nostradoomus said:


> Yep, looks like the unit will sit on headers on the board. Cool!



Yep.   In a 125B it'll plug right into a female header.

There's not quite enough depth in a 1590BB for headers so it'd have to mount directly to the board unless we use 9mm pots, which isn't out of the question...    I'm really enjoying having a rotary encoder instead of a mechanical rotary switch so 9mm pots could be a thing.


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## Nostradoomus

Is it slimline enough to mount on the other side if you lengthen out your pot legs?


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## Robert

Nostradoomus said:


> Is it slimline enough to mount on the other side if you lengthen out your pot legs?



Probably.   Why would you want it on the other side?

You need to be able to get to the two mini push buttons on the module in order to reprogram it.   Also there's a JTAG connector that will play a huge part in software debugging.


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## Nostradoomus

Only for space saving but not seriously haha


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## Robert

The components you see in the pic above are sitting under the module, so that space isn't going to waste.


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## azerty_guitar

beautifull project !!!!!


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## phi1

How’s the noise floor? I find the fv-1 somewhat objectionable when running at 100% wet.


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## ADAOCE

Forgive my ignorance but will this allow us to build some really power packed pedals like strymon etc?


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## zgrav

phi1 said:


> How’s the noise floor? I find the fv-1 somewhat objectionable when running at 100% wet.



Should be a big step up in sound quality due to the power of the chips and specs.  Info about the module here: 

https://www.electro-smith.com/daisy/daisy

and the github link is here:









						Home · electro-smith/DaisyWiki Wiki
					

Wiki for the Daisy ecosystem. Click the link to the right to get started -> - Home · electro-smith/DaisyWiki Wiki




					github.com


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## Ratimus

The part that has me super excited about this project: C++. No arcane assembly language to learn; it speaks my native tongue!


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## Robert

ADAOCE said:


> Forgive my ignorance but will this allow us to build some really power packed pedals like strymon etc?



I don't think we're quite at SHARC processing power yet but similar designs and functionality are definitely possible. (and going to happen)




Ratimus said:


> The part that has me super excited about this project: C++. No arcane assembly language to learn; it speaks my native tongue!



Seriously!      It almost feels like cheating.     ?


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## p_wats

Hmm...been a while since I did any coding. Maybe time to dive deeper and learn C++?


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## Dali

p_wats said:


> Hmm...been a while since I did any coding. Maybe time to dive deeper and learn C++?



I plan to go Pure Data's way... C++ is too much for my small brain.






						Pure Data         —         Pd Community Site
					






					puredata.info


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## daeg

Pretty impressive that you've managed to use all 6 pots inputs and all 6 switch inputs.

I've actually never built or owned a pedal that used two footswitches on a portrait oriented 125b. Is it realistic to use them with shoes?


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## Nostradoomus

My feet are size 14EEEE so that’s a no from me dawg


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## daeg

Any chance of getting us the 125b drill template before release?


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## daeg

Also, have you considered placing one of the toggle switches between the footswitches as like the Chase Bliss pedals? Not that I have a preference, it's just a cool idea.


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## benny_profane

daeg said:


> Also, have you considered placing one of the toggle switches between the footswitches as like the Chase Bliss pedals? Not that I have a preference, it's just a cool idea.


I don’t own any CBA pedals, but I always thought that that design is just begging for mechanical failure.


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## zgrav

If the design that was shared above is in production, or going into production, it looks like the positions of the board-mounted pots and toggle switches is already set.


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## daeg

benny_profane said:


> I don’t own any CBA pedals, but I always thought that that design is just begging for mechanical failure.



For what reasons? The mini-toggle between the footswitches? The DIP switches? The quite full circuit board?


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## benny_profane

daeg said:


> For what reasons? The mini-toggle between the footswitches? The DIP switches? The quite full circuit board?


The toggle between the foot switches.


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## zgrav

If the footswitches are going to be momentary (seems likely since they are programmable), you could also have jacks where you could run a cable to a separate box for one or both switches.  Probably a cool option for anyone using this with a keyboard.


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## Robert

benny_profane said:


> The toggle between the foot switches.



I was looking at some of those recently, what does the toggle actually do?

I know Joel is brilliant, and I'm sure the toggle is a short-shaft with plenty of clearance below the footswitches, but I have to agree..... that switch makes me uneasy.    ?


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## daeg

Robert said:


> I was looking at some of those recently, what does the toggle actually do?



Never owned one but I think on the dual-effects it does effect order, series parallel. Something like: A->B | A+B | A<-B.


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## daeg

Just purchased a Daisy Seed. I'm so excited for this but I just don't know where to start!

Per the product description, 4 programming methods are available:

C++
Arduino
Max/MSP Gen~
Pure Data(export using Heavy)
Mr. PCB, which method are you using?


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## Robert

I'm using C++.      The majority of the libraries (libDaisy and DaisySP) are written in C++, so it just seemed like the most obvious choice.   
I also have a bit more previous experience with C++ than Arduino, so I feel right at home with it.

I don't see the advantage of using Arduino, the language is similar enough that it's not really any easier to work with.     I think there is still some functionality that hasn't been fully implemented in the Arduino version of the library.

I've read that there may be performance issues using Max/MSP and Pure Data.

BTW the first prototype PCBs arrived today, so hopefully I'll get to build one up tomorrow and see what we have.


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## Dreamlands

Looks good.  I'm wondering if it's worth digging into CMSIS-DSP docs or if its incorporation in libDaisy and abstraction via DaisySP are going to address most everybody's needs.

Really excited to mess with this from what I've seen far.


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## mdc

daeg said:


> Never owned one but I think on the dual-effects it does effect order, series parallel. Something like: A->B | A+B | A<-B.



It selects between your presets. The effects order toggle is the one directly above it.


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## cooder

This is really super exciting and at the same time I'm a super noob when it comes to this... what are good ways into understanding this and getting the hang of C++ and that sorta stuff? And once this will be off the ground, will there be shared libarries for effects avaiable? Would we be able to write and modify our own stuff? That would motivate me to tackle a learning curve...


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## Robert

A basic C++ tutorial would be a good place to start..  Just the basics, program structure, variables, functions, if/elseif, for and while loops, etc.  

I would like to put together some community driven projects once we get going.


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## cooder

Robert said:


> A basic C++ tutorial would be a good place to start..  Just the basics, program structure, variables, functions, if/elseif, for and while loops, etc.
> 
> I would like to put together some community driven projects once we get going.


That will be great! Thanks for your hard work!


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## Danbieranowski

Any idea if there is some way to allow IR loading into a Daisy?


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## Dreamlands

Danbieranowski said:


> Any idea if there is some way to allow IR loading into a Daisy?



Plenty of memory, I think.
Otherwise, this'd be determined by there being sufficient CPU to run the convolution algorithm, given the size of the impulse response.
So, maybe "yes" with caveats.  I'd be curious to know what's possible on this front as well.


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## Barry

You kids are talking way over this old dogs head!


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## Danbieranowski

Barry said:


> You kids are talking way over this old dogs head!



Half the stuff in this thread goes over my head, but in regards to IR, I’d like to build an impulse response loader. This would allow me to apply my own cabinet impulses to amp-in-a-box circuits and have it sounds like a full rig. Right now I’m experimenting with the Unicab circuit for that purpose but I’d love something more flexible.


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## daeg

Pots are 100k linear? Switches are On/On toggles? TL072 dual opamp for input & output buffer? Daisy seed runs at 9v?


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## zgrav

I think the daisy runs at 5 volts, since it can be powered from a mini-USB plug.  I guess the terrarium board will take a standard 9 volt input and have a 5-volt converter for the daisy.


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## Robert

The Daisy module is powered by 9V, but has onboard regulators for the various ICs.

I'm using 10K linear pots at the moment because that's what the "Petal" used.   100K could be a better option since it would put less idle load on the 3.3V supply, but I just wasn't feeling very experimental yet.

Yep, TL072 for the buffers.

I just finished up the Terrarium prototype, all is working good so these will likely start becoming available in the next restock.


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## Nostradoomus

Oh sure, new DSP as I just ordered my first FV1 development board


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## daeg

Robert said:


> I just finished up the Terrarium prototype, all is working good so these will likely start becoming available in the next restock.



Fantastic news. Any chance that you'll be releasing the drill template ahead of time?


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## Dali

Nostradoomus said:


> Oh sure, new DSP as I just ordered my first FV1 development board



I'm pretty sure that even with Seeds modules being sold at almost twice the price of FV-1 (30$ instead of 18$) the capacity of this thing is going to make FV-1 and it's assembly language an oddity on the long run. 

I'm not helping... Sorry  

And since the Seeds is "flashable" from USB, it will means that a generic PedalPCB Terrarium will almost turns out to be a poor's man Daisy development board itself. Until you miss more knobs or EXP jack...

Am I right @PedalPCB ?


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## daeg

Dali said:


> And since the Seeds is "flashable" from USB, it will means that a generic PedalPCB Terrarium will almost turns out to be a poor's man Daisy development board itself. Until you miss more knobs or EXP jack...



The problem is (from what I understand) that you have to press the two buttons on the Daisy seed to flash it. What PedalPCB will give us is a convenient way to run code without spending $310 on the Daisy Petal.


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## Dali

Terrarium will offer more a possibility to test patches than a development platform in itself. Still 1000 times easier than flashing EEPROM and coding in pseudo-assembly.

 

I'm pretty sure we can expect 3-4 different Daisy PCBs from here and one of them being a development board (but I could be wrong).


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## Robert

That's correct.     The Terraria can be used while designing algorithms but it's not the most convenient physically because of the internal placement of the Seed module.    It's more of a nice little shell to test/run your algorithms in a real-world pedal environment.

I'm starting on a larger desktop "console" version that will be better suited to actual "get yours hands dirty" algorithm development... including a built-in headphone amplifier.   (Because I'm sick and tired of having to fire up my DAW and hook everything up to my interface every time I want to build something)


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## zgrav

I went ahead and purchased one of these for $89 (including a Daisy Seed).  









						Pod — Electro-Smith
					

Orders will begin shipping the week of November 28, 2022!   Start programming the Daisy without breadboarding! The Pod is a USB powered breakout board for the Daisy. With stereo line level I/O, MIDI input and headphone output with a dedicated volume control, this is the feature-packed, small-form br




					www.electro-smith.com


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## Elktronics

zgrav said:


> I went ahead and purchased one of these for $89 (including a Daisy Seed).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pod — Electro-Smith
> 
> 
> Orders will begin shipping the week of November 28, 2022!   Start programming the Daisy without breadboarding! The Pod is a USB powered breakout board for the Daisy. With stereo line level I/O, MIDI input and headphone output with a dedicated volume control, this is the feature-packed, small-form br
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.electro-smith.com


A bunch of my friends bought these on another forum. I’d love to see what they can do. But I’m a bit confused by how the buttons change the functions. I’m sure I could learn it, it just seems trouble some to pass through the menus


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## Robert

Elktronics said:


> A bunch of my friends bought these on another forum. I’d love to see what they can do. But I’m a bit confused by how the buttons change the functions. I’m sure I could learn it, it just seems trouble some to pass through the menus



There are no menus on the Pod, maybe you're thinking about the Patch?

Regardless, functionality depends entirely on the program you're running.


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## Elktronics

Robert said:


> There are no menus on the Pod, maybe you're thinking about the Patch?
> 
> Regardless, functionality depends entirely on the program you're running.


Sorry, I should have put menu in quotations. The “menu” function being that you push the button, and the led color changes to let you know what set of parameters you’re changing in this specific setup for the software I found a video demo for:


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## zgrav

I saw that demo and I guess it made more sense for keyboard players than guitar players.  The button pushes to change menu categories without a display looks confusing to me too, but the sounds for the synth in the demo are impressive.


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## Danbieranowski

Nostradoomus said:


> Oh sure, new DSP as I just ordered my first FV1 development board



SAME! Lol


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## daeg

Reading through the Daisy Wiki and looking at the Forum, I don't see any talk about simulating code.

Code Simulation is probably not an option at this point right?


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## Robert

daeg said:


> Reading through the Daisy Wiki and looking at the Forum, I don't see any talk about simulating code.
> 
> Code Simulation is probably not an option at this point right?



How do you mean?   Like running code on a PC?


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## daeg

Robert said:


> How do you mean?   Like running code on a PC?


Yeah. I liked that about SpinCad Designer.


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## Dreamlands

Just got my Daisy Seed in the mail yesterday, now up and running with "Blink" test program.

Can't wait to order a Terrarium!


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## daeg

What would you guys think about a collaborative Tap Tremolo project for the Terrarium?

A tap tremolo, to me, seems like the perfect way to learn the inns and outs of the Daisy: bypass, setting a clock counter via switch input, using a clock to control an LFO, routing that LFO to an LED, adjusting the LFO amplitude, multiplying the LFO and instrument signal, etc


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## tron2019

Robert said:


> The Daisy module is powered by 9V, but has onboard regulators for the various ICs.
> 
> I'm using 10K linear pots at the moment because that's what the "Petal" used.   100K could be a better option since it would put less idle load on the 3.3V supply, but I just wasn't feeling very experimental yet.
> 
> Yep, TL072 for the buffers.
> 
> I just finished up the Terrarium prototype, all is working good so these will likely start becoming available in the next restock.


Any updates about when the terrarium could be available? I've been messing around with spinCAD/asm but I'm pretty new to pedal building so I could definitely use something like this!


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## Robert

tron2019 said:


> Any updates about when the terrarium could be available? I've been messing around with spinCAD/asm but I'm pretty new to pedal building so I could definitely use something like this!



The boards arrived yesterday, so _very_ soon.


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## zgrav

Great news!


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## FancyEspresso

so excited! can't wait to see where these digital projects go


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## zgrav

are those the full size 1 UF box caps to go under the daisy seed?  those seem to be taller than the 40 pin socket I cut apart to mount on the PCB.


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## Robert

zgrav said:


> are those the full size 1 UF box caps to go under the daisy seed?  those seem to be taller than the 40 pin socket I cut apart to mount on the PCB.



I used MLCC in mine, but I did test fit some of the 1uF box caps first and they fit.   

I used two 20-pin female headers, those plus the height of the headers on the Seed gave just enough clearance.








						20 Pin 2.54mm Single Row Female Pin Header
					

GTK - Get It Fast - Same Day Shipping




					www.taydaelectronics.com
				




I'd do a dry-fit before soldering them in place just in case yours are larger.


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## zgrav

thanks for the quick reply


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## Dreamlands

Yeah, was wondering about that as well.  

Almost have my Tayda order together ... there's always stragglers that I end up adding well after I think I've got it all together.  I'm so bad at getting my BOMs together... BAD.


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## Robert

I'm going to list MLCC in the build docs just for the sake of safety.... someone will surely find a huge box film cap that doesn't fit.    ?


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## untamedfrontier

Robert said:


> I'm going to list MLCC in the build docs just for the sake of safety.... someone will surely find a huge box film cap that doesn't fit.    ?


LOL I'll let you know if the WIMA tall boi's fit once the new pin headers get in


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## Jbanks

On the momentary footswitches, those are the 2 lug connection type, correct? Is there a Tayda link for a recommendation?


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## Robert

Jbanks said:


> On the momentary footswitches, those are the 2 lug connection type, correct? Is there a Tayda link for a recommendation?











						SPST Momentary Soft Touch Push Button Stomp Foots / Pedal Switch
					

SPST | Momentary | Soft Touch | Long Lasting | High Quality




					www.taydaelectronics.com
				












						SPST Momentary Soft Touch Short Shaft Push Button Stomp Foots / Pedal Switch
					

SPST | Momentary | Soft Touch | Long Lasting | High Quality




					www.taydaelectronics.com


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## zgrav

are you recommending B10K pots for the board?    saw prior discussion suggestion B100K might work, and I'm pondering using B50K


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## Robert

I left them listed as B10K but I don't think you'd have a problem with any value between 10K - 100K. 

The pots are acting as a simple voltage divider going to an ADC pin on the Daisy seed.

I'd definitely stick with linear taper though,  you can define them as any other taper in your algorithm.


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## zgrav

thanks.


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## manysounds

Yes please an expanded version with stereo I/O and MIDI input!


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## manysounds

Robert said:


> .


Hello. Which pins are assigned to which pots/switches?
I want to make a custom JSON for Max Gen~ Oopsy Daisy to export gen~ directly to the Terrarium
Meet Oopsy Daisy for Max Gen~
Making Custom JSON files inside Oopsy Daisy

/edit: FOund it on GitHub, Thanks


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## TheMoonTotem

Robert said:


> View attachment 5961
> 
> 6 x Potentiometers
> 4 x Toggle switches
> 2 x Footswitches
> 2 x Indicator LEDs
> 1 x Micro USB port (via Daisy Seed)


Do you have schematic for this? I've ordered this board from your webstore. I need the schem for programming. Thank you


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## pedalsandchill

manysounds said:


> Hello. Which pins are assigned to which pots/switches?
> I want to make a custom JSON for Max Gen~ Oopsy Daisy to export gen~ directly to the Terrarium
> Meet Oopsy Daisy for Max Gen~
> Making Custom JSON files inside Oopsy Daisy
> 
> /edit: FOund it on GitHub, Thanks


Did you have any success on exporting from gen~ to Terrarium? 
If so, and if you don't mind my asking, what steps did you take to export from gen~ into the Terrarium? 
I'm having a heck of a time finding a solid step-by-step guide of some kind.


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## Plate of Shrimp

This is a better way to go in the Pure Data case as well; better than the tack of making some kind of Linux shell process.


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## daeg

Have you considered incorporating a dual-relay with the Terrarium?

Digitally controlled Relay Bypass would eliminate the latency when bypassed. We'd get to have True Bypass when wanted, but also have options for Reverb Tails. _I think_ it would only cost the space of the Dual Relay, 2 BJT transistors and 2 resistors, assuming that the Daisy doesn't have the current available to drive the relay itself.

Ultimately we'd have a DIY DSP Platform that would look just like Walrus Mako series. How cool would that be?


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## Robert

Yes, the next design has programmable relay bypass.


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## daeg

Consider me stoked.


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## zgrav

Electrosmith is expecting new stock for the Daisy sometime this month.


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## rectifier

We need more programmers, this is such an interesting project. Sadly I don’t see a lot of people programming effects for it 🥺


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## daeg

rectifier said:


> We need more programmers, this is such an interesting project. Sadly I don’t see a lot of people programming effects for it 🥺


It will come with time. The Daisy has a much steeper learning curve than the FV-1, and you can see evidence of that over at the Daisy Guitar effects forum. One guy who has developed FV-1 effects professionally is struggling to do simple bypass on the Daisy.

Early last year I was getting deep into FV-1 programming and was even starting to create some original effects. I paused for a minute to learn the Daisy, but then life got much more complicated (in a good way) and I just don't have the time or energy to climb over the learning curve right now. There are probably two dozen guys on this forum with the same story.


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## daeg

Robert said:


> Yes, the next design has programmable relay bypass.


What are your thoughts on replacing one of the pots with a Rotary Switch?

The Arachnid had a very nice control layout, with the 8-position rotary right in the center. That PCB was beautifully done.





Also, notice by only using 3 toggle switches and orienting them horizontally, Chase Bliss and Walrus Audio were get those toggles much, much closer to the pots -- comfortably out of the way of the dual foot switches. Different chipsets, but both have found ways to make use of On/Off/On toggles as well. Maybe that freed pot input could be used as an option expression pedal jack; we can supposedly do that now that we don't have the heavy hysteresis / smoothing on the pot inputs like the the FV-1 had.


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