# BJF Lil Green Wonder - or is it??



## HamishR (Oct 18, 2020)

With a lot of help from the patient Chuck I have finally got this pedal where I want it. It started out as just as exercise in "I wonder what this will sound like", morphed into "hey this sounds aright!" and ended up being almost the perfect overdrive for a Gretsch.   

I got into amp building and then pedal building to get "the sound in my head", which was a big fat twangy, dirty sound; clear and single-coil-like on the bass strings but fat and vocal on the trebles. It was a sound I have always wanted but never got 100% despite trying lots of things. Now, with a Gretsch Duo Jet or 6120 with Filter'trons, my home-made map, some slap-back delay and this pedal I have got closer than ever to my holy grail.









But it does more than that. My Les Paul loves it too. It's not as complex a sound as the G I posted a layout for here. It's actually quite a simple sound and you might notice a TS basis under it. But it has excellent punch, a lot of touch responsiveness and some of the best low string definition I have ever heard in an overdrive pedal. It's all come about almost by accident and I love the sound it has. And it has come a looong way from being a LGW!

Thanks Chuck!!


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## mjh36 (Oct 18, 2020)

Excellent sir. I gotta start doing those stomp lights. Hey is this the sandpaper black from tayda or something else?


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## HamishR (Oct 18, 2020)

Yup, Tayda sandpaper black. It's a lot like the engine on my bike.


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## mjh36 (Oct 18, 2020)

Ahhh ok, it does have that automotive texture, I'll do my next build the Caliber 45 in that black, it looks quality. You got me sold on the low parts count for those pedals.


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## caiofilipini (Oct 18, 2020)

Looks awesome! How did you mount the board into the enclosure?


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## HamishR (Oct 18, 2020)

I don't really mount the board to anything. The wiring keeps the board in place. Of course the pots beneath the board have condoms on. I find double sided tape doesn't stick to pot condoms very well so I don't use anything. It just stays there.


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## caiofilipini (Oct 18, 2020)

Interesting. I'm planning on building a SHO on vero and was asking myself that question. I'll give that a shot. Thanks!


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## jubal81 (Oct 18, 2020)

Incredibly cool. Love the black/green aesthetic!
Any chance we could see the schematic? Looked up the TLC272 and seems like it'd be a fun opamp to overdrive.


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## HamishR (Oct 18, 2020)

If you're familiar with the original you'll see I added a bass pot and we got rid of the Jfet gain stage in front with no change in sound. Chuck told me about that and I love simplicity. I also changed from LEDs to silicon diode clippers because in general I don't care for the sound of LEDs as clipping diodes and in this case I much prefer the silicons. This doesn't really sound like a LGW any more. The LGW is a cool pedal but this is more useful for me.


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## dlazzarini (Oct 18, 2020)

HamishR said:


> With a lot of help from the patient Chuck I have finally got this pedal where I want it. It started out as just as exercise in "I wonder what this will sound like", morphed into "hey this sounds aright!" and ended up being almost the perfect overdrive for a Gretsch.
> 
> I got into amp building and then pedal building to get "the sound in my head", which was a big fat twangy, dirty sound; clear and single-coil-like on the bass strings but fat and vocal on the trebles. It was a sound I have always wanted but never got 100% despite trying lots of things. Now, with a Gretsch Duo Jet or 6120 with Filter'trons, my home-made map, some slap-back delay and this pedal I have got closer than ever to my holy grail.
> 
> ...


That looks great. Nice and clean. I’ve only done one vero layout so far and it was kind of a nightmare when it came to the off board wiring. I plan on doing more.


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## Mcknib (Oct 18, 2020)

That is some extremely tidy vero building.........

I don't think I'll be uploading any of my vero efforts any time soon

That just looks top quality far better than some of the manufactured handmade jobs that use vero, I've seen

I think myself and the boutique builders will need a very high ladder to get anywhere near your level of vero craft

If you look closely you can just make me out! but I had to climb down again damn soldering iron cable was far too short!


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## Chas Grant (Oct 18, 2020)

OH MY!!! That is really top notch! Everything about it is on the spot!


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## twebb6778 (Oct 18, 2020)

Holy crap that's a tidy vero build! Mine always manage to look more like a spider's nest


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## HamishR (Oct 19, 2020)

If anyone is interested in building this I have discovered that two parts make a huge difference in how it sounds. If you want a crisp, twangy overdrive which suits a Gretsch particularly well, build it as shown above. If you want something fatter and meatier and more ROCK change C5 to 100nF and remove C11. Simple as that. Changing C5 makes a huge difference to the overall sound, and making it 100nF really bumps up the mids. I'm keeping one of each.  


Oh, and it works fine with a regular old TL072 too.


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## phi1 (Oct 19, 2020)

Agreed you have consistently great vero work. Thanks for sharing the design with all the mods, looks great. Just to clarify, removing C11 would increase treble, making it more twangy, right. Or in the version with C5=47n was C11 added to compensate to reduce high end?


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## HamishR (Oct 19, 2020)

C11 was put there to reduce treble on the brighter/thinner version. When you use a bigger cap at C5 you don't need it. It amazes me how much difference that cap (C5) makes - but Chuck knew! Apparently using 100nF for C5 brings the bass into mid-hump territory. Kinda.

The fatter version is more like a typical LGW sound, and the thinner version (schematic above) is the twangy clear version. The twangy version is just beautiful with a Gibson when you use the neck or middle setting. With gain down it's a great clean-to-dirty OD with plenty of sparkle and chime. I'm thinking I might build a 2-in-1 pedal with one of each version.


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## phi1 (Oct 19, 2020)

Also would be very easy to select these caps with a toggle switch.  Your compact layout would have plenty of space in 1590B.


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## Chuck D. Bones (Oct 19, 2020)

HamishR said:


> Yup, Tayda sandpaper black. It's a lot like the engine on my bike.



Yeah, does it leak oil too?

Nice job, Man.  You are a Vero artiste.  

Happy to help out.


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## HamishR (Oct 19, 2020)

"Also would be very easy to select these caps with a toggle switch. Your compact layout would have plenty of space in 1590B."

Yeah I have been thinking about that. The only issue is the treble. When you reduce the value of C5 it seems to get a lot brighter - it probably doesn't, but of course it's all about balance. I guess I could use a DPDT and switch two caps at once... But I'm not one for using toggle switches much. I usually find the setting I like and hardwire that!  I'd rather have two pedals.


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## phi1 (Oct 19, 2020)

Haha understandable... I tend to try to build in options since I’m cheap about enclosures and switches haha. Anyway... you could adjust both C5 and C11 on a SPDT toggle. 47n hardwired in for C5. Lug 2 of the switch to ground. One side of the toggle adds another 47n in parallel with C5. The other side adds C11 to ground.


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## HamishR (Oct 20, 2020)

Chuck so far so good no leaks. But you've got me worried now... I'll use a fresh gasket next time I open it up. It's more letting the smoke out I'm worried about.

Hey phi1 - You got me thinking more about C5... So I did some more experimenting, wondering if there was a compromise which would suit both situations and I think there is. Changing C5 just a little bit makes a huge difference to how the pedal sounds. From what I've been told it seems that the bigger C5 is, the more the low end creeps into the midrange in that crucial area around 7-800Hz. Well I don't know where am I am frequency-wise but I had found 100nF to be too much for the Gretsch and 47nF too little for the Les Paul (although it did sound pretty good). But it seems that 82nF for C5 works beautifully with both guitars. In fact I think it sounds best of all the options I tried. So here is an updated schematic if anyone is interested - It may not work as well with your rig but it sounds great with mine.    It also cleans up surprisingly well with the Gretsch's volume control (which has a treble bleed on it).


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## phi1 (Oct 20, 2020)

Right on, experimenting is what it’s all about.

If you’re ever curious where you are frequency wise, you can use F=1/(2*pi*R*C) where R is R7. F is the frequency below which lows start to be attenuated (it’s not a complete cut). You can use an RC filter calculator website to do it easier (it’s the same equation for this as a LPF RC filter).

Of course, crunching numbers is no substitute for using your ears as you well know!


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## HamishR (Oct 22, 2020)

At the risk of wearing out my welcome... After talking with Chuck he convinced me this could get even simpler while still sounding the same.  He's right. Really annoying - he's almost always right.

So here is the schematic for my latest version and I dare say my last. This is a simply great all-round OD for me and particularly amazing with a Gretsch with Filter'trons. And as a minimalist at heart I love simpler.


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## HamishR (Oct 22, 2020)

And pics of the new version. I may change the knobs because it's all a bit lairy for me!  But it's a cool look.





View attachment 7217


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## cooder (Oct 22, 2020)

Looks great, thanks for sharing, might have to give this a try as well!


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## Chuck D. Bones (Oct 22, 2020)

Looks great!  The schematic is a LOT like a Timmy at this point.  Just a little different tuning on the BASS & TREBLE controls.  Last stage could be wired for some gain, but I'm sure it's plenty loud as-is.

The schematic shows the TREBLE control wired backwards.  Resistance should be minimum at full CW.


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## HamishR (Oct 22, 2020)

That's interesting - I'll have another look at the Timmy schematic. Thing is this sounds a fair bit more aggressive than a Timmy. I even built a Timmy III recently with the same clipping diode combo as I have here and while it sounded better to me than the original Timmy it's still quite polite compared to the Gringo, as I am now calling this circuit. And yeah - with gain and volume at around noon it's just above unity volume-wise.


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## cooder (Oct 22, 2020)

Chuck D. Bones said:


> Looks great!  The schematic is a LOT like a Timmy at this point.  Just a little different tuning on the BASS & TREBLE controls.  Last stage could be wired for some gain, but I'm sure it's plenty loud as-is.
> 
> The schematic shows the TREBLE control wired backwards.  Resistance should be minimum at full CW.


How would you suggest to wire/change the last stage for more gain?
Add a resistor in feedback loop of op amp stage?


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## Chuck D. Bones (Oct 22, 2020)

Just copy the Timmy's 2nd stage for a 6dB boost.  If you go any higher, you risk saturating the 2nd stage.


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## cooder (Oct 22, 2020)

Cheers Chuck!


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## HamishR (Oct 23, 2020)

I discovered that I showed the treble control wired backwards when I built it and found that I had wired the treble pot backwards. I thought I had updated the schematic but obviously not. But hey - the pedal looks cool! And the interior pic seems to have disappeared.


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## HamishR (Oct 23, 2020)

updated schematic with treble pot the right way around:


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## cooder (Oct 23, 2020)

Awesome thanks might have to give that a try too! Thanks for sharing!
Vero build looks superb!


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## HamishR (Oct 23, 2020)

If it helps here is my Vero layout.


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## cooder (Oct 23, 2020)

Thanks but my vero would look horrible... I'm enjoying at the moment Diptrace, might whip up a board that way. Cheers again!


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## HamishR (Oct 23, 2020)

Ha! Well there you go - I can't make up a PCB. But I can do Vero.


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## ADAOCE (Oct 23, 2020)

HamishR said:


> If it helps here is my Vero layout.
> 
> View attachment 7253


Thanks!!


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