# Delegate (Warden) Upgrades



## Chuck D. Bones

This post describes the mods in the Col. Klink.
The EQD Warden is a good optical compressor.  Basic design is mostly sound, with one major defect, one minor defect and a few opportunities for improvement.  Parts of this design were lifted from the Ross compressor.
*Major Defect*
The signal path is routed through Q1, where is gets distorted by the non-linear loading from D2 & Q3.  This is easily corrected by disconnecting C14 from Q1-E and connecting it to IC1 pin 1.  You can do this on top of the board simply by lifting the + lead of C14 out of the pad and running a jumper to the end of R5 closest to IC1.  I did it by cutting and jumpering on the bottom of the board.  If you're not experienced in trace cutting, then do the mod on the top of the board.





*Minor Defect*
The bottom end of the TONE control is useless.  I don't know about you, but I have no use for a treble cut in a compressor.  A little treble boost brings the sparkle back that gets lost in compression.  The stock tone control is flat at about 8:00 or 8:30 and below that cut treble.  At 7:00 it's a very strong treble cut.  Installing a 20K resistor in series with pin 1 of the TONE pot fixes that.  Now 7:00 is flat and it's all treble boost above that.  You can cut the TONE pot's lead short and install the 20K resistor between pin 1 and the board, or use a solder lug pot like I did.





*Opportunities for Improvement*
1. Q1 biasing.  Q1 is biased close to saturation, which reduces its dynamic range.  If we correct the major defect above, this mod is less important.  However I wanted to maximize the performance of the envelope detector and remove any loading effect from the output of IC1.1.  Replace C5 with a 3.3K resistor (stand it up).  Replace R6 with a 10K resistor.  Do not solder the bottom end (the end furthest from Q1) to the pad, solder it to the next pad over at the end of R7 (also 10K).





2. Better component values.
2a. Change R3 to 2.2M, change R1 to 2.2M or larger; I used 4.7M.  R3 = 10M makes no sense when R1 = 1M.  Change C2 to 100nF, 1uF is at least 10x larger than it needs to be, even with R3 reduced to 2.2M.
2b. Change R4 to 10K for 6dB more sustain.
2c. Change the LEVEL pot from B50K to A50K.  Gets unity closer to noon.

*Parts Substitutions*
This is all very optional. I did it because I had the parts.
Q1-Q3 can be any high-gain NPN transistor.  I used 2N5210.  They can all be 2N5088, 2N5089, MPSA18, etc.  Don't waste your best transistors here.
I used some fast rectifiers for D4 & D5 to improve the charge pump efficiency.  1N5817 is also a good choice.
I used TC7662 for IC2, it is slightly more efficient that the usual suspects.

A note about the LED & LDR.
I used a frosted white LED.  It's very bright even at low current.  It turned out to be overkill.  The LDR I used is in a TO-18 can, obtained from Electronic Goldmine.  They were dirt cheap on sale, like 40 cents each.  One ot two stinkers in the bunch, but the rest went from under 2K (illuminated) to over 2Meg (dark).  Cadmium Sulfide LDRs have a quick response to light, their resistance drops in a few milliseconds.  Their response to dark is much slower, over 100ms to get from 2K to 500K.  The more light that hit them, the longer it takes for the resistance to go up. That's why a bright LED isn't always a good thing. I find it best to set the ATTACK at 8:00 or 9:00 so the peak LED current is less and the release is quicker.


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## jjjimi84

I love of all of your mod posts, cannot wait to try this out on mine!

Thanks for all of your hard work


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## Nostradoomus

Well there’s one I’m glad I haven’t boxed yet!


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## Chuck D. Bones

It's a funny thing about cutting traces: when you're doing a repair and you don't want the trace to lift, it does.  But when you're doing a mod and you want to cut a trace, it's robust as Hell!  Takes a fair amount of pressure with the Exacto knife to get it to cut.  These boards are well made and it really shows.  I always make 2 cuts 1 or 2 mm apart and scrape out the bit between the cuts.  Otherwise, one little sliver of copper will rejoin the two sides.


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## Robert

Just to clarify for those at home just tuning in, *these are not PCB defects*.   These are design "issues" that are also present in the original pedal, the PCB is true to the original circuit.

Now with that out of the way, maybe we should work up a Chuck's Boneyard Edition Delegate PCB so folks who want to try these mods don't have to start cutting things.


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## Chuck D. Bones

Robert said:


> Just to clarify, *these are not PCB defects*.   These are design "issues" that are also present in the original pedal, the PCB is true to the original circuit.
> 
> Now with that out of the way, maybe we should work up a Chuck's Boneyard Edition Delegate PCB so folks who want to try these mods don't have to start cutting things.



Jawohl, Herr Kommandant!

Absolutely correct on both counts.


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## Gordo

Chuck, honestly my man, you never cease to amaze me.  I need another comp like a lack of social distancing but I might score this thing just to try the mods.  Good note Bugg that this is "modding" and not correcting problems.  I got all old school a few days ago and etched and built up Bajaman's LA2A limiter and is certainly worth a look-see.  The Constrictor is my fave comp to date and the Closed Circuit is a regular on my rig and the LA2A (no it's not that good) take on Bajaman is a very cool.  I'm definitely in the opto camp when it comes to dynamics and just a couple of knobs gives me less option anxiety but always up for new gear.  Thanks for your posts.


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## jubal81

Excellent work, Chuck! I hadn't looked at this before, but it's a definite WTF were they thinking?

Looks like they have Q1 set up like it should be a JFET, which I believe you could pop in there without changing anything else. Good old 5457 would do the trick.

I'd also change the charge pump from a doubler to bipolar - fewer parts and GND makes an excellent VREF.

Another change I'd make is using a non-inverting stage on the output with a passive volume control. This would make the input and output phase match. Could also ditch that tone control and put a treble boost on the now non-inverting output stage.


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## Chuck D. Bones

All good ideas.  Q1 is fine as a bipolar, it's just a phase splitter in this circuit.  EQD definitely missed the boat on how they implemented the charge pump, should have been an inverter like you said.


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## Chuck D. Bones

Gordo said:


> I need another comp like a lack of social distancing...



I was of the same mind.  I have a Boss CS-3 which I (knowing) bought broken for $25.  Replaced the blown chip and put in the Monte Allum mods.  It's a great compressor: smooth, transparent, quick and sustain for days.  Then I heard the demos for the Warden and had to have the Delegate.


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## Barry

Chuck D. Bones said:


> I was of the same mind.  I have a Boss CS-3 which I (knowing) bought broken for $25.  Replaced the blown chip and put in the Monte Allum mods.  It's a great compressor: smooth, transparent, quick and sustain for days.  Then I heard the demos for the Warden and had to have the Delegate.


I had a buddy that bought the Allum mods for a BD2, H20 I think it was, he got half way done and gave up on it, sent it to me and I finished it up and fixed his goof ups, sounded pretty good


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## chongmagic

Chuck you are the master!


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## BurntFingers

EQD Warden v3 incoming.


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## Robert

PCB layout is done, but I want to clean up / optimize the trace routing a bit.

I'll send over the schematic later to make sure everything is as described above.


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## cooder

Excellent and very interesting stuff, great guys! Would be great to see the updated schematic to follow and understand the description through for the not so quick switched on peeps here like me...


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## K Pedals

Chuck D. Bones said:


> This post describes the mods in the Col. Klink.
> The EQD Warden is a good optical compressor.  Basic design is mostly sound, with one major defect, one minor defect and a few opportunities for improvement.  Parts of this design were lifted from the Ross compressor.
> *Major Defect*
> The signal path is routed through Q1, where is gets distorted by the non-linear loading from D2 & Q3.  This is easily corrected by disconnecting C14 from Q1-E and connecting it to IC1 pin 1.  You can do this on top of the board simply by lifting the + lead of C14 out of the pad and running a jumper to the end of R5 closest to IC1.  I did it by cutting and jumpering on the bottom of the board.  If you're not experienced in trace cutting, then do the mod on the top of the board.
> 
> View attachment 4365
> 
> *Minor Defect*
> The bottom end of the TONE control is useless.  I don't know about you, but I have no use for a treble cut in a compressor.  A little treble boost brings the sparkle back that gets lost in compression.  The stock tone control is flat at about 8:00 or 8:30 and below that cut treble.  At 7:00 it's a very strong treble cut.  Installing a 20K resistor in series with pin 1 of the TONE pot fixes that.  Now 7:00 is flat and it's all treble boost above that.  You can cut the TONE pot's lead short and install the 20K resistor between pin 1 and the board, or use a solder lug pot like I did.
> 
> View attachment 4366
> 
> *Opportunities for Improvement*
> 1. Q1 biasing.  Q1 is biased close to saturation, which reduces its dynamic range.  If we correct the major defect above, this mod is less important.  However I wanted to maximize the performance of the envelope detector and remove any loading effect from the output of IC1.1.  Replace C5 with a 3.3K resistor (stand it up).  Replace R6 with a 10K resistor.  Do not solder the bottom end (the end furthest from Q1) to the pad, solder it to the next pad over at the end of R7 (also 10K).
> 
> View attachment 4367
> 
> 2. Better component values.
> 2a. Change R3 to 2.2M, change R1 to 2.2M or larger; I used 4.7M.  R3 = 10M makes no sense when R1 = 1M.  Change C2 to 100nF, 1uF is at least 10x larger than it needs to be, even with R3 reduced to 2.2M.
> 2b. Change R4 to 10K for 6dB more sustain.
> 2c. Change the LEVEL pot from B50K to A50K.  Gets unity closer to noon.
> 
> *Parts Substitutions*
> This is all very optional. I did it because I had the parts.
> Q1-Q3 can be any high-gain NPN transistor.  I used 2N5210.  They can all be 2N5088, 2N5089, MPSA18, etc.  Don't waste your best transistors here.
> I used some fast rectifiers for D4 & D5 to improve the charge pump efficiency.  1N5817 is also a good choice.
> I used TC7662 for IC2, it is slightly more efficient that the usual suspects.
> 
> A note about the LED & LDR.
> I used a frosted white LED.  It's very bright even at low current.  It turned out to be overkill.  The LDR I used is in a TO-18 can, obtained from Electronic Goldmine.  They were dirt cheap on sale, like 40 cents each.  One ot two stinkers in the bunch, but the rest went from under 2K (illuminated) to over 2Meg (dark).  Cadmium Sulfide LDRs have a quick response to light, their resistance drops in a few milliseconds.  Their response to dark is much slower, over 100ms to get from 2K to 500K.  The more light that hit them, the longer it takes for the resistance to go up. That's why a bright LED isn't always a good thing. I find it best to set the ATTACK at 8:00 or 9:00 so the peak LED current is less and the release is quicker.


Amazing work!¡!


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## music6000

Clever Build Chuck!
Maybe the Warden should have been labelled a Depressor.
I have had a Cmatmods Deluxe Compressor on my Board for close to 10 years & it will still be there for many more to come!


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## kubavit

Great work. Just to sum up your changes. Please review the doc. I think it will help with those mods.


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## Chuck D. Bones

All good except D4 & D5 should be 1N5817.  Here's my copy of the schematic.


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## kubavit

Great  Do You have comparision between Warden and ThorphyFX Fat General ?
Do they differ a lot ?


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## Chuck D. Bones

*Similarities: *
They are both optical compressors.
Both fit in a 125B box.
Both use the same LED & LDR.
Both use the OPA2134 audiophile-grade dual opamp.
*Differences: *
FG uses two LED/LDR pairs, W uses one pair.  They both achieve the same objective, but by slightly different means.  Ideally, the FG LDRs should be matched.  In reality it probably doesn't matter very much.
W has more available gain and sustain.
W has a RATIO knob which sets the how much the comp can reduce gain.  FG has a BALANCE knob which kinda does the same thing.
Both have TREBLE controls (W calls it TONE), but they are tuned differently and the FG is capable of more treble boost.  Whether you need that much boost is for you to decide.
W has variable ATTACK and RELEASE.  I find it useful to be able to slow down the ATTACK so the beginning of each note retains some dynamics.  The FG is wired for fast attack and fast release.  The FG's BALANCE control mixes in some uncompressed signal, so you can vary the dynamics that way.
W has a charge pump for more headroom.
FG has a higher parts count, 75 vs. 54.
W has more knobs, 6 vs. 3.
FG has buffered bypass, W has true bypass.


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## kubavit

Thank You a lot !


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## kubavit

Hello again. I have a question especially to You @Chuck D. Bones.
I created the PCB based on your version. After soldering and connecting I have a problem.
There is sound from the pedal, but the white LED does not blink at all. On the DC power-on, the white LED turns on, and then slowly turns of. during playing LED does not respond. Also I cannot hear any compression sound. Could You help with this case ? Schematic in teh attachement. I have used SS12A instrad od 1n5817 diodes and B1M pot instead of C1M.

P.S. when turnin off the power supply when the pedal is on there is noticable 'squeeze' sound in the AMP. I can share the PCB etc.

BR,
Jakub


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## Chuck D. Bones

That schematic matches what I built.  A couple of questions:

Are you testing the board where light from the room can get to the LDR?

The numbers 5-10k next to the LDR, what do those represent?


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## kubavit

Yes, there is a lot of the light from the room (there is no enclosure yet)
the LDR is: http://electropark.pl/fotorezystory/5471-fotorezystor-5-10k-5mm-gl5516.html  (5-10k is the resistance period)


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## Chuck D. Bones

The room light is overwhelming the LDR.  You have to test it with the LDR in complete darkness.  If it's not in the enclosure, then put a cardboard box over the board and dim the room lights for testing.

You really need a C1M SUSTAIN pot if you want to use the top end of the range.  Otherwise, the top end of rotation, between 4:00 and 5:00, will be too touchy.

BTW, I swapped my internal LED out for something with a lot less output: a 3mm green diffuse LED.


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## kubavit

Thank You. I will simulate the full darkness and let You know about the results.

1. With green intetrnal LED it will compress more smoothly ?
2. C1M is really hard to get. I will have to order it in China I think.


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## Chuck D. Bones

It's not about LED color, it's about how much light falls on the LDR.  Go back and read the last paragraph in my first post in this thread.

There are a number of sources for C1M pots, including Tayda & Small Bear.


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## kubavit

Thanks a lot. It worked in the complete dark environment. So in my understanding the more light falls onto LDR the more compressed signal is ?


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## Chuck D. Bones

In a manner of speaking.  The more light on the LDR, the lower the resistance.  The lower the LDR resistance, the lower the gain.  For smooth compression, you have to set the ATTACK above zero and the SUSTAIN below max.


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## daeg

Anyone else getting a volume spike when the Delegate engages? Seems like during bypass, the envelope is at 0, so the gain is at max, then when you hit the footswitch, your signal gets full gain applied before the envelope can catch up.

I'm not much of a compressor guy so IDK if this is normal with Feedback style Compressors, but I find it unpleasant.


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## Chuck D. Bones

It's normal with high SUSTAIN settings, but can be easily fixed.  What are your control settings?


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## daeg

Chuck D. Bones said:


> It's normal with high SUSTAIN settings, but can be easily fixed.  What are your control settings?



Here's where I've had it for the last few months. (Using a 1-10 scale)
*Attack: 3, Ratio: 6, Release: 0
Level: 4, Tone: 6, Sustain: 7*

The duration of the volume spike is proportional to the Attack time, as you'd expect. The circuit also makes an unpleasant click when 'Attack' is set to minimum and 'Ratio' is high.
It totally makes sense why it happens, I'm just surprised I've never heard guitarists complain about it before, especially given how picky gearheads are.


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## Chuck D. Bones

Indeed.  The fix is simple.  If your stomp switch is hardwired (no breakout board), remove the wire between pins 1 and 6.  Connect a wire between pins 1 and 2.  Now the guitar signal is always fed to the board. The compressor will track the signal level, even in bypass.  We can get away with this because the Delegate's input impedance is high.

If you have a breakout board, you remove the wire between the Delegate board IN pad and the breakout board.  Connect a wire between the breakout board's far left pad (the one that goes to the input connector) and the Delegate board IN pad.


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## cooder

Chuck D. Bones said:


> Indeed.  The fix is simple.  If your stomp switch is hardwired (no breakout board), remove the wire between pins 1 and 6.  Connect a wire between pins 1 and 2.  Now the guitar signal is always fed to the board. The compressor will track the signal level, even in bypass.  We can get away with this because the Delegate's input impedance is high.
> 
> If you have a breakout board, you remove the wire between the Delegate board IN pad and the breakout board.  Connect a wire between the breakout board's far left pad (the one that goes to the input connector) and the Delegate board IN pad.


So to understand you correctly there, is it that the input of pcb should always be connected to input jack/incoming signal to achieve this? Correct?
The switch would just switch between bypass straight through and out of pcb?


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## Chuck D. Bones

Exactly.


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## daeg

Chuck D. Bones said:


> Now the guitar signal is always fed to the board. The compressor will track the signal level, even in bypass.  We can get away with this because the Delegate's input impedance is high.



Hah, I was just about to say I wish it wasn't True Bypass; it would make so much more sense to just feed it the input signal when disengaged and only switch the output.

In my case I used the Relay Bypass Module, but eventually I'll want to build another compressor and do this.


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## benny_profane

Robert said:


> Just to clarify for those at home just tuning in, *these are not PCB defects*.   These are design "issues" that are also present in the original pedal, the PCB is true to the original circuit.
> 
> Now with that out of the way, maybe we should work up a Chuck's Boneyard Edition Delegate PCB so folks who want to try these mods don't have to start cutting things.


Is the boneyard edition a serious idea or was that a joke? I’d be interested in picking that board up.


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## Robert

benny_profane said:


> Is the boneyard edition a serious idea or was that a joke? I’d be interested in picking that board up.



Yep, not a joke.


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## Flying

Hi, it looks like this PCB layout was done in May, but it's not materialsed is that due to the current situation or was there a problem with the design?

And it would be great to hear feedback from anyone who's compared the two. I'm deciding whether to jump in or wait!


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## Dali

I know nothing but I'm still impress and full respect for you guys.

Hats off!


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## Flying

I know just enough to know that I I don't know much!

And full respect to Chuck D. Bones, for seeing a better way of doing it.


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## wren

Flying said:


> Hi, it looks like this PCB layout was done in May, but it's not materialsed is that due to the current situation or was there a problem with the design?
> 
> And it would be great to hear feedback from anyone who's compared the two. I'm deciding whether to jump in or wait!



I would also be interested in an updated PCB! Debating on whether  to buy the current one or to wait.


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## Robert

wren said:


> I would also be interested in an updated PCB! Debating on whether  to buy the current one or to wait.



I'm going to try to have them in about two weeks.   Just had to work out some last minute details with Chuck.


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## fig

@Chuck D. Bones

I am planning to build this and have an initial question; Can an OPA211 be used in substitution of the OPA2134?

From what I gathered, it could (no idea if it _should)_...

As someone smarter than me once said _"It's over your head". _

Thanks!

Crapola...I thought this was the Compressor thread..sorry...see above quote!


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## Chuck D. Bones

OPA211 is a single and OPA2134 is a dual, so no, they are not interchangable.  Any FET input dual opamp will work, some better than others.  If you don't have an OPA2134, then try a TL072.  OPA2211 is a dual, it's not FET input but has low bias current so it will probably work.


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## fig

Chuck D. Bones said:


> OPA211 is a single and OPA2134 is a dual, so no, they are not interchangable.  Any FET input dual opamp will work, some better than others.  If you don't have an OPA2134, then try a TL072.  OPA2211 is a dual, it's not FET input but has low bias current so it will probably work.


I left out a "1" meaning OPA 2111, but your response covers it, thanks! Looking forward to the build.


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## teal

I tried the mods (except point 2) and it improves the sound of the Delegate so much.
Thanks a lot for your work.
There is one thing I'm not so happy with the pedal, but it seems to be the same with the original Warden too.
A bit of the low end gets lost in the compression, so it is not the greatest joy playing it with the bass as I hoped for.
Can I maybe bring the low end back a little bit with point 2 of the improvements?


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## Chuck D. Bones

Mod 2 won't help the low freq performance.  What control settings are you using?


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## teal

Sorry didn't see your reply earlier, didn't show up in the bar.
Thank you for answer.
I give the pedal still a trial with different settings and now the main problem seems to be the lost of the high end in sustain setting beyond 12:00 and/or slower attack rates.
Talked already with people in a german forum and it turns out that the tone pot works as a high pass filter, so when I try to bring the lost highs back, it simutaneiously cuts of low end, which is bad for bass of course.  Also the tonestack comes after the compression, so it can not bring any frequencies back that are lost in compression.
Before the "Major Defect mod" I didn't have this much decrease of highs, so I guess it has to do with that.
In higher compression settings the delegate can't bring the highs of the original signal of any instrument back anymore, except in very smooth settings. Can this have anything to do with your mod?


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## Chuck D. Bones

Mine does not behave the way you describe.

My mods do not reduce the high-freq response.  C4 cuts the treble a bit when the LDR goes completely dark, this is unchanged from the Delegate design.  Some LDRs have very high resistance when dark, that may be what you are hearing.

The low freq content does not change when rotating the TONE pot.  The high freq content increases when turning clockwise.  There may be a perception that the lows are decreased, but they aren't.


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## teal

Maybe I made a bad solderpoint or used a bad cable when I connecting IC1.1 with C14, will check it tomorrow.
One thing is for sure: Without your mod the pedal sounds awful in a lot of settings. Can't believe EQD sells theirs without!

Will also build in a blend knob with integrating a jfet buffer between C1 an IC1.2.
Being able to mix in the original signal makes really sense for bassists in most pedals.
Maybe it is a welcome upgrade for some of you too. Colognel Klink might be happy about a german plus 
Could share the link to the schematic if you like, it also values your mod.
Hope we can come up with a random source or something in the future, creating a real Funny Bot Pedal in dedication to the South Park Episode


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## benny_profane

teal said:


> Could share the link to the schematic


https://docs.pedalpcb.com/project/Delegate-Boneyard.pdf


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## teal

No this one
https://www.musikding.rocks/forum/i...-mit-blend-funktion/&postID=450761#post450761


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## benny_profane

teal said:


> No this one
> https://www.musikding.rocks/forum/i...-mit-blend-funktion/&postID=450761#post450761


Ah okay. I didn’t understand what you meant there.


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## Chuck D. Bones

teal said:


> Maybe I made a bad solderpoint or used a bad cable when I connecting IC1.1 with C14, will check it tomorrow.
> One thing is for sure: Without your mod the pedal sounds awful in a lot of settings. Can't believe EQD sells theirs without!
> 
> Will also build in a blend knob with integrating a jfet buffer between C1 an IC1.2.
> Being able to mix in the original signal makes really sense for bassists in most pedals.
> Maybe it is a welcome upgrade for some of you too. Colognel Klink might be happy about a german plus
> Could share the link to the schematic if you like, it also values your mod.
> Hope we can come up with a random source or something in the future, creating a real Funny Bot Pedal in dedication to the South Park Episode


Not sure you need a BLEND knob.  I can understand using it with distortion or filter pedals when playing bass.  The RATIO knob essentially does the same thing as a BLEND knob in the Warden / Delegate / Col. Klink.  It's like a clean bleed.


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## Feral Feline

CDB, another Bass-sick question for you. How does the output cap affect output impedance? 

I'm seriously under-educated in regards to calculating input/output impedances, I've recently started to try and correct this deficiency in my knowledge. I've read some EE-forums, and more closely related been reading pedal-forums info... and relative to this thread trying to relate all that back to the Delegate Boneyard specifically. 

This was the most helpful info I've found thus far:




__





						How is output impedance calculated?
					

How is output impedance calculated?



					www.diystompboxes.com
				




RG Keen does a pretty good job explaining things so a non-EE pedal-punter like me can understand things, and I almost do. However, he glossed over the cap by making it 10u, out of the range of relevancy as it relates to output impedance. 

In a nutshell, I'm thinking of exchanging the 1u caps in C5 C9 & C11 for 2u2. I realise there's probably very little difference in expanding the low end by going above 1u, but I've got the 2u2 caps and thought I'd try it anyways (kind of like how AMZ's MOSFET boost is fine with bass, but was cap-bumped nonetheless in the Cat'bread Sagrado Poblano Picoso). My thinkering is that I don't want to swamp the detection circuit by making the input cap 2u2, but hope to ensure some good low-end escapes the circuit.

Anyway, I've tried to do my homework and not be just spoonfed an answer, but I'm still hungry to find what if any affect changing the 1u output cap (C11) to 2u2 will have on impedance. 

Many Thankages 🙏


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## teal

Chuck D. Bones said:


> Not sure you need a BLEND knob.  I can understand using it with distortion or filter pedals when playing bass.  The RATIO knob essentially does the same thing as a BLEND knob in the Warden / Delegate / Col. Klink.  It's like a clean bleed.


The Ratio knob is not very effective anymore after I did the major mod. Also the Tone pot brings not the highs back like it did before.
The sound is more mid and low colored now. Don't know what else I can do to make the sound more neutral again


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## Chuck D. Bones

Have you considered the possibility that there is an error in your build?  The things you describe are not normal and no one else has reported these problems.


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## Chuck D. Bones

Feral Feline said:


> CDB, another Bass-sick question for you. How does the output cap affect output impedance?
> 
> I'm seriously under-educated in regards to calculating input/output impedances, I've recently started to try and correct this deficiency in my knowledge. I've read some EE-forums, and more closely related been reading pedal-forums info... and relative to this thread trying to relate all that back to the Delegate Boneyard specifically.
> 
> This was the most helpful info I've found thus far:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How is output impedance calculated?
> 
> 
> How is output impedance calculated?
> 
> 
> 
> www.diystompboxes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RG Keen does a pretty good job explaining things so a non-EE pedal-punter like me can understand things, and I almost do. However, he glossed over the cap by making it 10u, out of the range of relevancy as it relates to output impedance.
> 
> In a nutshell, I'm thinking of exchanging the 1u caps in C5 C9 & C11 for 2u2. I realise there's probably very little difference in expanding the low end by going above 1u, but I've got the 2u2 caps and thought I'd try it anyways (kind of like how AMZ's MOSFET boost is fine with bass, but was cap-bumped nonetheless in the Cat'bread Sagrado Poblano Picoso). My thinkering is that I don't want to swamp the detection circuit by making the input cap 2u2, but hope to ensure some good low-end escapes the circuit.
> 
> Anyway, I've tried to do my homework and not be just spoonfed an answer, but I'm still hungry to find what if any affect changing the 1u output cap (C11) to 2u2 will have on impedance.
> 
> Many Thankages 🙏


I don't have a short answer.  I'll give you this to ponder until I have the time to formulate a better response...

The output impedance only matters in relation to the input impedance of the next device in the chain.  You have to look at the whole picture.


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## Feral Feline

Okay, thanks. I remembered that the output impedence is affected by the input of the next pedal in the chain.


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## teal

I'm not sure if we are talking already about nuances of the sound most people probably don't concern, but I will make an audioprobe to exclude other issues!
Thanks for taking your time and I will promise to stop bothering you after this very last question:
What does the Mod 2a do with the input stage and why did EQD build it so strangely compared to input stages of most other pedals?


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## Feral Feline

Don't know about the mod, but you'd have to ask EQD about why an EQD pedal was built so strangely.


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## teal

Feral Feline said:


> Don't know about the mod, but you'd have to ask EQD about why an EQD pedal was built so strangely.


Only Chuck can tell why he changed the values of the input buffer. I don't want to risk soldering too much on the board, so that is why I want to know


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## Chuck D. Bones

I changed those parts to inject a measure of sanity into the design.  EQD's Jamie Stillman readily admits that he's no engineer.  He fiddles parts until he's satisfied with the sound.  Good enough for him.  Not good enough for me.  The component values I specify in mod 2a result in an input impedance >1MΩ and a low freq cutoff <1Hz.  Either set of component values will sound the same.


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## Chuck D. Bones

Feral, I think this thread has run its course and then some.  If you want to continue the discussion on input and output impedance, let's start a new thread in the Boneyard.


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## xefned

Wow, I feel like someone should tell the guy at EQD his product could be greatly improved by implementing Chuck's major flaw mod #1. 

One of many perks to the DIY community: you can build *better* than commercially available products. Love it dude.

Anyway, here's how I did the mod on the top of the board if anyone is interested …





And yeah, there's a shit ton of flux in that area because I tried to tack it into place *after* R5 was already soldered in. 
When that didn't work, I took out R5 and reinstalled a new one so I'd have more room.


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## Chuck D. Bones

Nice job!
Be sure to clean that excess flux off, it might cause problems later.
Question: why did you not buy the Boneyard Edition and save yourself the trouble?


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## xefned

Chuck D. Bones said:


> Nice job!



Thank you, thank you!



Chuck D. Bones said:


> Be sure to clean that excess flux off, it might cause problems later.



I'll heed your advice. Olderheads in the scene always advised not to worry about the flux. Since you know what you're talking about, I'll wedge a q*tip in there with some isopropyl alcohol. Or else I'll wait till it hardens and scratch it out. I don't want it to haunt me down the road!



Chuck D. Bones said:


> Question: why did you not buy the Boneyard Edition and save yourself the trouble?



I bought it before I saw this thread. A friend asked me to build him a compressor. I asked ‘which compressor do you want?’ And he sent me a link directly to the Inferior Edition™.  Since I wanted a compressor for myself, I bought 2. Ha. So I get to do the mod twice. 

Definite advice to anyone thinking about building a Delegate: *get the Boneyard Edition.* No question. Hopefully, the BY edition is outselling the regular by 10:1.

This was my first purchase from PedalPCB. Before that, I only used Madbean and self-etched pedals. Glad my guitarist friend linked me. My PedalPCB builds are more successful and better sounding than my self-etched experiments.

I loaded up the cart to get free shipping. 

First I build the Solenoid Overdrive: absolutely fantastic and so much fun to play through. 
Then I built the Woodpecker Tremolo: my favorite trem ever.
Now I'm building these 2 Delegates and I'm optimistic they will rule the earth.

Right now, on the Warden, the LED is not lighting up at all. So I'll have to check the schematic and troubleshoot. Or maybe try a brighter LED. I'm using a 3mm LED of unknown origin. I'm hoping it's just a super dim one or something.

The volume and tone knobs are working. It's just not compressing. … yet!


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## Chuck D. Bones

The LED could be bad or in backwards.  You wouldn't be the first person to install an LED backwards.  Hint: The LDR sees _everything_. If you want to test this with the board exposed, the room has to be very, very dark. A bad connection with the ATTACK or RELEASE pots would also prefent the LED from lighting.


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## xefned

Chuck D. Bones said:


> The LED could be bad or in backwards.  You wouldn't be the first person to install an LED backwards.  Hint: The LDR sees _everything_. If you want to test this with the board exposed, the room has to be very, very dark. A bad connection with the ATTACK or RELEASE pots would also prevent the LED from lighting.


The LDR is picking up room light. I move my desk lamp and I can hear the volume change.  Now I'm at risk of derailing this thread which should stick to Boneyard mods. But at the same time, my build isn't worth starting a new thread; I'm having no trouble yet. I expected to swap LEDs at least 3x. I remember you recommended a 3mm, less bright LED so that's what I started with. Also, the LED / LDR combinations might be interesting to anyone deep into this build. So I'll make this my last post in this thread, and ask forgiveness later. 🙃

Measuring DC across the LED, I can get it to about 1v when I strum hard. That's not enough to generate visible light with this particular LED. 
Why is this interesting? Because I'm using a passive guitar directly into the Delegate.
Folks with a hot signal, compressing at the end of their chain, might want to stick with a dim LED.
Compressing at beginning of chain? Maybe some folks will want a brighter LED. It's a quandary bc the compressor will bring up the noise floor at the end of the chain.

Dig this. No changes since my last post. But if I BOOST tf out of the signal with a SuperHardOn, I get visible light. 
Onward with LED experimenting!




*Updates.* Keeping them confined to this post:
The next LED I tried was a 5mm white LED: LTW-2R3D7. (In combination with a GL5516 LDR.)
Mouser page says it's 2000mcd (but also lists it as 4200mcd on the same page which is confusing.) I also have ones listed at 8200mcd which I'm not gonna use.

The compressor can now be activated with a passive guitar and no booster. It seems to be working well so I'm going to stick with it for now, but I wish I had a dimmer one (actually 2000mcd) to try. This one's bright enough to leave phosphenes after you look at it for a while.

*I did Chuck's:*

Major defect
Minor defect (Essential!)
Better component values, 2b. Because who doesn't want 6dB more sustain?
Fixing the tone knob is major. Don't skip that one. It's easy to do.

—EDIT— "*Significant problem" fixed by testing in a dark room as originally instructed.*

As previously mentioned, save yourself the trouble at get the Boneyard Edition PCB at the outset.
That's a wrap. Thanks Chuck!


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## Grent5000

Just to double check - if im using the boneyard edition of the pcb, all mods are included in that, so its just a straight forward build as per the listed pcb components ?


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## Barry

Grent5000 said:


> Just to double check - if im using the boneyard edition of the pcb, all mods are included in that, so its just a straight forward build as per the listed pcb components ?


Pretty sure that's correct, but I'm sure @Chuck D. Bones will confirm shortly


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## Chuck D. Bones

Yes, absolutely.  Build to print.


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## jmwreck

I may have missed something, but why are the caps C7 and C8 in Delegate-Boneyard 220n instead of 22n?


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## Chuck D. Bones

Good question.  I don't know.  I just checked my pix and they are 22nF in my build.  220nF may work fine, but they seem to be overkill.


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## xefned

Is anyone else having trouble with the ratio knob (over 50%) killing the visible light from the LED?

Everything's working great until you turn that ratio knob up. Do I just need a brighter LED? Any ideas where I should look?

I'm wondering if lowering the input resistor at R2 would let more signal into the box? Or would that cause problems?
Maybe my transistors are too low gain?

I've actually tried 5 different LEDs. Even my brightest LED only lights up with power chords and a humbucker. It's pretty dim when playing on just the B and high-E strings.


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## Chuck D. Bones

Turning the RATIO knob clockwise makes the AGC (automatic gain control) loop more sensitive to LDR resistance.  You may have trouble seeing the light coming out of the LED, but the LDR is seeing it.  That LED is not for your eyes, it's for the LDR.  A brighter LED would not be any more visible because the AGC loop will dim the LED down until the LDR resistance is appropriate.  

Reducing R2 will have no effect.

Changing R4 won't make the LED any brighter either, but you found that out already.

Here's a silly question: are you testing this in total darkness?  *Any *stray light will make the LDR resistance go down and the circuit will react by lowering the LED current.


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## xefned

Chuck D. Bones said:


> Here's a silly question: are you testing this in total darkness?  *Any *stray light will make the LDR resistance go down and the circuit will react by lowering the LED current.



If I were smarter, that might be a silly question. But no, I'm a dumbfuck and I'm doing this in a lit room.

I even remember reading *on page 2 of this very thread* to test it in the dark but somehow I forgot. Oh well, maybe this will help remind people that light in the room is like turning a knob against you.

You're the best, Chuck. You deserve a medal for dealing with people like me.



			
				Chuck D. Bones said:
			
		

> Changing R4 won't make the LED any brighter either, but you found that out already.



Yep, switched it to 22k. No effect. Switched it immediately back to 10k. 

Lights off. Boom. Sound improves. LED lights even with ratio full blast.

I've had a fully working compressor this whole time!! I just didn't know it.
I just needed to put the lid on.

In a room with no light but the pilot light from my Sovtek Midget, I discover this compressor works, and it sounds amazing. What a relief. Thanks again Chuck. 





Now I probably have an LED that's too bright.


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## jimilee

Daaamn, this is the second thread this evening, where this has happened.


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## Chuck D. Bones

Chuck D. Bones said:


> Good question.  I don't know.  I just checked my pix and they are 22nF in my build.  220nF may work fine, but they seem to be overkill.


OK, here's what happened.  In breadboard testing the Boneyard Edition, I found that increasing C6 & C8 was beneficial so I told Mr. PedalPCB that 220nF was the preferred value.  That's why the Build Docs say 220nF.  That conversation took place 17 months ago and had slipped from my memory banks.  Increasing those caps speeds up the peak detector and allows the user to set a faster attack response, if that's what you want.  You can still dial back the attack speed with the ATTACK knob.

In summary, the Build Docs are correct.  22nF will work; 220nF will work better.  I should update my Delegate.


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## jmwreck

Chuck D. Bones said:


> In summary, the Build Docs are correct.  22nF will work; 220nF will work better.  I should update my Delegate.


Ok, thanks for the info, I'm building it soon.. Not to derail the thread, but how does the Delegate/Boneyard edition differ to Keeley (bass/guitar) Comp if you've tried one?


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## Chuck D. Bones

They are very different beasts, both in circuit design & performance.


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## cooder

@Chuck D. Bones ^ I think you were a bit polite there... always the gentleman.


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## Chuck D. Bones

The Keeley is a feed-forward, VCA-based design.  It will be faster and more precise than the Delegate or any other optical compressor.


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