# Unthreaded Sub Mini Toggles - Mechanical Stability



## benny_profane (Jun 13, 2022)

Is it typical to have a bit of play (vertical and horizontal) with pcb-pin sub mini toggles? I have some installed on a build and they have a bit more movement than I had expected. It seems like it’s normal (I used a flat pliers to grip some others in my stock to compare behavior), but I wanted to check to see if there might be a mechanical issue.


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## Big Monk (Jun 13, 2022)

benny_profane said:


> Is it typical to have a bit of play (vertical and horizontal) with pcb-pin sub mini toggles? I have some installed on a build and they have a bit more movement than I had expected. It seems like it’s normal (I used a flat pliers to grip some others in my stock to compare behavior), but I wanted to check to see if there might be a mechanical issue.



I would expect some movement for a switch with pins not mechanically attached to the enclosure. 

I would imagine you’d want to keep the enclosure holes tight to the switches for enhanced mechanical stability. 

My EHX Good Vibes had unmourned threaded switches and the holes were a CH width from the switches themselves.


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## benny_profane (Jun 13, 2022)

Yeah, those are my thoughts too. It seems fine, but I was surprised with how much play the toggle housing itself had (both installed and when testing with the pliers). 



Big Monk said:


> My EHX Good Vibes had unmourned threaded switches and the holes were a CH width from the switches themselves.


What is a ‘CH width’?


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## Big Monk (Jun 13, 2022)

benny_profane said:


> Yeah, those are my thoughts too. It seems fine, but I was surprised with how much play the toggle housing itself had (both installed and when testing with the pliers).
> 
> 
> What is a ‘CH width’?



It’s a dirty old way of saying that there isn’t much of a gap.


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## Feral Feline (Jun 14, 2022)

Short-straight blonde or long dark&curly ?


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## benny_profane (Jun 14, 2022)

@PedalPCB since you've got some experience with different pedals, is the mechanical stability of unthreaded sub-minis reliant on the panel hole, i.e., if the board is unmounted, do these switches have some movement? The pins connected to the board are stable, but there is some movement with the switch housing/sheath/toggle itself.


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## ADAOCE (Jun 14, 2022)

Feral Feline said:


> Short-straight blonde or long dark&curly ?


This whole exchange made my day lol


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## benny_profane (Jun 14, 2022)

ADAOCE said:


> This whole exchange made my day lol


I don't understand half of what's happening in this thread. I just want to know about the mechanical stability of sub-minis.


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## Big Monk (Jun 14, 2022)

benny_profane said:


> I don't understand half of what's happening in this thread. I just want to know about the mechanical stability of sub-minis.



I mean you tell us. Is it stable?


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## benny_profane (Jun 14, 2022)

The board connection is fine—there's no movement with the pin-to-board connection. The housing/sheath/toggle itself has an amount of play. My concern is that I damaged it during installation if that it is not normal to have movement there.


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## Robert (Jun 14, 2022)

Coincidentally I have this sitting in front of me right now.

It looks like Seymour Duncan expected some movement from the switch.


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## Big Monk (Jun 14, 2022)

benny_profane said:


> The board connection is fine—there's no movement with the pin-to-board connection. The housing/sheath/toggle itself has an amount of play. My concern is that I damaged it during installation if that it is not normal to have movement there.



Shit, my bad. I misunderstood your original questions. If the motion originates from the PCB pins, and therefore, the motion involves the whole switch body I’d say you are good. 

If the base is stable but the metal portion is moving Independently, I’d say you may have boogered it a bit. 

Does it have tabs where it attaches to the switch body? 

Can you access them?


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## benny_profane (Jun 14, 2022)

Big Monk said:


> Shit, my bad. I misunderstood your original questions. If the motion originates from the PCB pins, and therefore, the motion involves the whole switch body I’d say you are good.
> 
> If the base is stable but the metal portion is moving Independently, I’d say you may have boogered it a bit.
> 
> ...


It's odd, the pins themselves are stable, but there is movement with the upper part of the housing. When I thought heat may've damaged it, I took out an uninstalled part, clamped the pins with a pliers, and tested for movement. The upper part of the housing had the same play as the installed part. So, I'm thinking that this is normal. 

Unfortunately, these are not the type with the stability tabs. 

I can do a bit of disassembly to access. I may just end up replacing them: if the behavior is the same, then I'll consider that normal and perhaps provide some extra mechanical support à la Robert's picture above.


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## Harry Klippton (Jun 14, 2022)

benny_profane said:


> I don't understand half of what's happening in this thread. I just want to know about the mechanical stability of sub-minis.


'CH' is a groan worthy drunk uncle type of saying for a small measurement, the CH stands for 'cunt hair'


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## benny_profane (Jun 14, 2022)

Oh okay. Gross. That’s an accurate characterization.


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## Feral Feline (Jun 14, 2022)

The thing with the threadless-collared sub-minis is that every time you flip it, push on it, tap it — the brunt of that movement is born upon the solder-joins if there's any sort of gap between collar and enclosure (there usually is, to ease mass assembly)  and eventually movement of the part on the PCB goes from a bit of short-straight blonde to long-curly black movement and then the solder-joins around the pins cracks and you have an intermittently faulty switch that will fail altogether, if ignored.

I bet that's why you see the glue on the S'more Dunkin' example, to help minimise the movement of the switch on the PCB and to delay the inevitable eventual failure of those solder joins.


A threaded, nut-locked switch tightened down to an enclosure cannot transfer the physical momentum of repeated switch-flip-abuse to the PCB/Solder-joins; instead that energy is absorbed by the switch-internals and the enclosure.


At least, that's my layman's theory of the physics of it all...


I first came across the ... aforementioned graphic terminology... while working in the transportation-side of the movie industry — lots of colourful language from those mother-truckers.


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## Diynot (Jun 15, 2022)

I have these installed on my Minimu build and if I remember there was a little play back and forth, but have noticed it on the odd spdt/Dpdt as well. Hasn’t seemed to affect functionality anyways


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## ADAOCE (Jun 15, 2022)

Feral Feline said:


> The thing with the threadless-collared sub-minis is that every time you flip it, push on it, tap it — the brunt of that movement is born upon the solder-joins if there's any sort of gap between collar and enclosure (there usually is, to ease mass assembly)  and eventually movement of the part on the PCB goes from a bit of short-straight blonde to long-curly black movement and then the solder-joins around the pins cracks and you have an intermittently faulty switch that will fail altogether, if ignored.
> 
> I bet that's why you see the glue on the S'more Dunkin' example, to help minimise the movement of the switch on the PCB and to delay the inevitable eventual failure of those solder joins.
> 
> ...


I first heard it working my co op job in hvac in high school. Hahah


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## Bio77 (Jun 16, 2022)

I would guess that the housing movement is not important, as long as the switch relative to the pins are solid.  I think Robert's picture confirms that the loose housing is a feature of the switch.  It might be intentional, since you obviously can't mount the switch first and then solder the board to the switch.  Instead you have to solder the switch to the PCB.  The play in the housing might be there to insure you can still fit everything into the enclosure even if the switch is a few degrees off true. My guess.


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## Mentaltossflycoon (Jun 16, 2022)

Big Monk said:


> a CH width from the switches themselves.



You sound like my grandfather.


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## Big Monk (Jun 16, 2022)

Mentaltossflycoon said:


> You sound like my grandfather.



Wait until I ask you how to use the VCR.


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## benny_profane (Jun 16, 2022)

Bio77 said:


> I would guess that the housing movement is not important, as long as the switch relative to the pins are solid.  I think Robert's picture confirms that the loose housing is a feature of the switch.  It might be intentional, since you obviously can't mount the switch first and then solder the board to the switch.  Instead you have to solder the switch to the PCB.  The play in the housing might be there to insure you can still fit everything into the enclosure even if the switch is a few degrees off true. My guess.


That all makes sense. Thanks!


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