# Kliche Mini problem



## Michi1590

Hey Guys,

i finished my second pedal from pedalpcb, the kliche mini. 
Now i have some problem with the circuit. The pedal is working in its standard function. So switch on/off is working. Also tone & volume control is fine. But the circuit itself doesnt work. The Gain control nearly doesnt change the sound. No distortion at all. In my opinion the sound gets a bit thicker when i activate the pedal, but very minimal.

Can anybody help me pls. 

Greetings, Michael


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## music6000

Is this what your 100k Gain pot looks like?


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## Michi1590

Yes, its that one


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## music6000

Michi1590 said:


> Yes, its that one


Confirming it says B100K & not B10K


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## Michi1590

The 6-pin pot is B100K, the other two 3-pin pots are B10K


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## music6000

Michi1590 said:


> The 6-pin pot is B100K, the other two 3-pin pots are B10K


Can you provide pictures of your finished PCB.


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## Michi1590

there you go


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## Michi1590

the resistors are pretty messy on the board because the holes were to narrow on this pcb. But i checked that no one is touching each other and i checked all soldered parts and switched the two equal IC's


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## music6000

Michi1590 said:


> the resistors are pretty messy on the board because the holes were to narrow on this pcb. But i checked that no one is touching each other and i checked all soldered parts and switched the two equal IC's


Yes, this is designed for 1/8 W resistors, not 1/4 W.
Is the Treble Pot Insulated between Pot & PCB


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## Michi1590

Yes i glued a pad between


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## music6000

Michi1590 said:


> Yes i glued a pad between


Can you confirm what the Mark is in the Red Circle?

Can you see if the Germanium Diodes are touching resistors in Purple Circle
In Super size, They look like they might be touching!


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## Michi1590

The Diodes dont touch the resistors. They're mounted higher an the legs are tapered. 
Do you mean the last mark on second resistor from left ? It's a brown mark


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## music6000

Michi1590 said:


> The Diodes dont touch the resistors. They're mounted higher an the legs are tapered.
> Do you mean the last mark on second resistor from left ? It's a brown mark


Can you check for Continuity between R10 (15K)  & R9 (2K) on the side where that Brown mark is.
Can you send picture's of TL072 Op Amps markings.


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## Michi1590

IC's 1&2: UTC VJTH TL072L 01
IC 3: TC1044S


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## Michi1590

i do have conectivity between them


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## music6000

Michi1590 said:


> IC's 1&2: UTC VJTH TL072L 01
> IC 3: TC1044S


I'm not familiar with this UTC Brand. I have only used & heard of Texas Instruments TL072.
Maybe someone else can verify their Authenticity.


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## zgrav

What are your voltage readings on the ICs?  Are you getting the +18 v and the -9 v from the charge pump?


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## Michi1590

How do i check that ? Sorry, i'm not that experienced in IC stuff


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## zgrav

You need a digital multimeter to test how much voltage you have at different contact points on a circuit board when the power is applied.  Same device will also let you confirm that your parts are connected properly on the circuit board, and test the value of resistors (usually easier to do before they are soldered in place).  If you don't have one and you are going to build more pedals, you should get one.  You can get one for $10 from different online sources.


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## Michi1590

OK yes i have a Multimeter and im used to continuity, diodes, resistor, capacitor checking. But i never checked voltages on ICs and never had something to do with a charge pump. So how do i do that? At wich pins do i check the voltage ?


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## Michi1590

Hey Guys,

i finished my second pedal from pedalpcb, the kliche mini. 
Now i have some problem with the circuit. The pedal is working in its standard function. So switch on/off is working. Also tone & volume control is fine. But the circuit itself doesnt work. The Gain control nearly doesnt change the sound. No distortion at all. In my opinion the sound gets a bit thicker when i activate the pedal, but very minimal.

Can anybody help me pls. 

Greetings, Michael


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## zgrav

You should use google and find some basis instructions for measuring voltages with your DMM.  It is very similar to using it to measure resistors, just a different setting on the device and you have power applied to the PCB/parts you are testing.   You use the circuit diagram for the effect that is included in your build document to see what parts are connected to the power.  To test volts, connect the ground on your black DMM probe to your PCB ground, set the DMM to the volts setting, and start testing different parts of your pcb with the other probe.  

make sure you have +9v coming in from the power jack, and at the part of IC3 (the charge pump) that the circuit diagram shows as getting the + 9v.    Then you use the circuit diagram to see what pins of IC3 should provide +18 v and -9 v.  Then if those voltages are correct, you start checking the pins on IC1 and IC2 to see what power is present on them.


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## Michi1590

Thanks for the Tip! I checked the voltage on every pin and noticed that IC3 is correct but one of the TL072 is broken i guess because one Inverted Input is 0 V wich should be Vref (4,5 V on the others). When i switch slots the error moves with the IC. I will order a few new ones. Thank you all for your great help!


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## zgrav

Get a couple of spare TL071s  for your inventory!  : ^ )


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## music6000

Michi1590 said:


> Thanks for the Tip! I checked the voltage on every pin and noticed that IC3 is correct but one of the TL072 is broken i guess because one Inverted Input is 0 V wich should be Vref (4,5 V on the others). When i switch slots the error moves with the IC. I will order a few new ones. Thank you all for your great help!


If you can, try & get Texas Instruments TL072 OP Amps, Well regarded Brand & Touch wood, I have never had one Fail.
With the Electrolytic Caps, They need to be on or as close to the PCB to avoid damage to solder joint and PCB when being knocked about.
This would have been a Better option for the Resistors between the TL072's.





Happy Soldering!
Cheers music6000


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## Michi1590

Hey, so i got the Texas Instrument IC's and changed all 3 IC's, just for safety. Now the voltages are fitting the circuit diagram with sligtly different values (16,5 V instead of 18,5 V). So the overdriven sound has slightly increased but its not getting even close to the original sound. Its more like a clean boost or something with minimal distortion in it. 
Can anyone give me a hint where to search further?


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## music6000

Michi1590 said:


> Hey, so i got the Texas Instrument IC's and changed all 3 IC's, just for safety. Now the voltages are fitting the circuit diagram with sligtly different values (16,5 V instead of 18,5 V). So the overdriven sound has slightly increased but its not getting even close to the original sound. Its more like a clean boost or something with minimal distortion in it.
> Can anyone give me a hint where to search further?


Using a Resistor Calculator, Check to see if your Resistors are Correct.

http://resistor.cherryjourney.pt/
             Click on *Bands* to give you 5 colours


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## Michi1590

Pedal works now perfectly! Thanks again. 

R9 & R11 had wrong values. I soldered in the values wich was printed on the pcb but on the building document they have different values.


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## Robert

Michi1590 said:


> Pedal works now perfectly! Thanks again.
> 
> R9 & R11 had wrong values. I soldered in the values wich was printed on the pcb but on the building document they have different values.



Ahh I didn't catch this in your earlier post!   You don't have the Kliche *Mini *PCB, you have the Kliche *Clean *PCB.   It is a slightly different circuit that isn't as dirty as the standard Kliche.      In the Clean version the Gain control acts as a "Color" control, so the behavior you noticed was normal.

C7, C16, D1, and D2 will be slightly different as well.  Otherwise everything else is the same.

For the standard Kliche Mini you'll want:
C7 - 82nF
C16 - 4.7uF
D1 & D2 - GE (1N270 / 1N34A / D9E / etc)


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## jpjindex

Hi... I'm new here.
What's the difference between the 3 pcb's for Klon's clone? I mean Kliche Mini PCB, Kliche Clean PCB and Klone Overdrive.
I know about the values... my question is specifically about the circuit (PCB).
Thanks
Jones/Brazil


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## zgrav

The schematic for each of those is in the build documents and you can check them yourself to see what parts may be different values.   The Clean and Mini will fit into a smaller enclosure than the Overdrive because the Overdrive board is made to also hold a 9 volt battery.


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## Robert

jpjindex said:


> Hi... I'm new here.
> What's the difference between the 3 pcb's for Klon's clone?


Welcome!

Like zgrav mentioned, the difference between the Kliche and Kliche Mini is just the PCB size.    

The Kliche is designed for a 1590BB and has a cutout to hold a 9V battery.  It uses 1/4W resistors.

The Kliche Mini is designed for a 125B with top mounted jacks, there would be no room to fit a battery in that build.  It uses 1/8W resistors.
The circuit is identical to the Kliche.

The Kliche Clean is a variation of the Kliche Mini PCB (also fits a 125B and uses 1/8W resistors).   The circuit is very similar, but is more of a clean boost that adds color than an overdrive.


If you're looking to build a straight up Klone you most likely want the Kliche or Kliche Mini.


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## jpjindex

Hi there, thanks for replies.
Regarding 100K pots... are they all linear? 
Rgs


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## Robert

Volume and Tone are 10K Linear,   Gain is a Dual 100K linear pot, like this:








						100K OHM Linear Dual Taper Potentiometer PCB Mount Round Shaft Dia: 6.35mm
					

ALPHA - Get It Fast - Same Day Shipping




					www.taydaelectronics.com


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## longwetsocks

I'm having almost the same issue with my Gain knob not doing too much. Going to confirm the Resistor values near the gain pot and check the IC's. Also something weird, I have the exact Linear Dual Taper Pot listed above but my Gain knob is reverse. The gain doesn't increase when going clockwise, but does when going counter clockwise. Any ideas?


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## Robert

Can you post a pic?


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## longwetsocks

Of course, thanks!


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## phi1

When you say that Gain increases as you turn the knob CCW, does it actually sound distorted, or just louder but still clean?

The Gain dual pot does three things.  One side controls the volume of the clean path (CCW more clean, CW less clean).  The other side affects the dirty path by bleeding it to Vref (CCW) and boosting the gain of the op amp (CW).  I can't imagine how the side of the pot that controls the dirty side could work backwards.  If your "more gain CCW" is actually just louder clean, than it would seem there's a problem with the dirty path (either on a defective pot or a mistake on that path).  

Just conjecturing / trying to narrow it down for now.


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## longwetsocks

I'd say more gain CCW is just louder clean to be honest, so it seems like an issue in the dirty path. I've got some extra IC's for this pedal so I'll try socketing in some new ones and see if it makes any difference. I also have another dual pot that I can swap in. I'll do some more troubleshooting sometime this week. Otherwise what other things could I try in the gain path?


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## zgrav

check to make sure the resistors are the right value


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## longwetsocks

I should be looking at R9, R10, R11, C7, C8 right? I'll confirm values on those and their solder joints, and try swapping ICs.


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## Michi1590

Hey Guys,

i finished my second pedal from pedalpcb, the kliche mini. 
Now i have some problem with the circuit. The pedal is working in its standard function. So switch on/off is working. Also tone & volume control is fine. But the circuit itself doesnt work. The Gain control nearly doesnt change the sound. No distortion at all. In my opinion the sound gets a bit thicker when i activate the pedal, but very minimal.

Can anybody help me pls. 

Greetings, Michael


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## longwetsocks

Pulled the Dual Pot from the PCB and tested it. Works perfectly. Soldered it back in. Now I'm checking IC voltages:
IC1 TL072
pin 1 = 4.58v
pin 2 = 4.58v
pin 3 = 1.23v
pin 4 = 0v
pin 5 = 4.41v
pin 6 = 4.58v
pin 7 = 4.70v
pin 8 = 9.13v

IC2 TL072
pin 1 = 4.65v
pin 2 = 4.58v
pin 3 = 4.52v
pin 4 = -8.75v
pin 5 = 4.52v
pin 6 = 4.58v
pin 7 = 4.52v
pin 8 = 16.47v

IC3 TC1044
pin 1 = 9.12v
pin 2 = 4.78v
pin 3 = -9.12v
pin 4 = -4.17v
pin 5 = -8.75v
pin 6 = 4.20v
pin 7 = 3.95v
pin 8 = 9.12v

Any ideas?


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## music6000

longwetsocks said:


> I should be looking at R9, R10, R11, C7, C8 right? I'll confirm values on those and their solder joints, and try swapping ICs.


Does the Volume pot have the plastic Dust Cover.


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## music6000

Check your Resistor Values with this, Click on Bands for 4 or 5 colours :









						Resistor Calculator
					

Resistor Calculator is an App developed by CherryJourney to help the user find the value of a resistor.




					resistor.cherryjourney.pt


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## longwetsocks

music6000 said:


> Does the Volume pot have the plastic Dust Cover.


The volume pot does have the plastic dust cover on it. I'll run through the board and check my resistor values shortly.


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## longwetsocks

All my resistors look to be correct. I'm thinking I have to have dry solder somewhere. Any ideas would be appreciated!


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## Chuck D. Bones

IC voltages are all good, no surprise there.  Did you build the Kilche Mini or the Kliche Clean?
Quickest way to find a bad solder joint is *Thorough Visual Inspection*.  Use plenty of light and magnification.  Look for cold solder joints, missing solder joints and solder bridges.


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## longwetsocks

Chuck D. Bones said:


> IC voltages are all good, no surprise there.  Did you build the Kilche Mini or the Kliche Clean?
> Quickest way to find a bad solder joint is *Thorough Visual Inspection*.  Use plenty of light and magnification.  Look for cold solder joints, missing solder joints and solder bridges.


Thanks Chuck. I built the Kliche Mini. I'm going to give it a nice thorough visual inspection and reflow anything that looks suspect. Hopefully that does it. Given I'm not hearing much of the gain, where in the circuit would you begin to focus?


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## Chuck D. Bones

Check R12 & R15, they carry the dirty signal to the next stage.  Make sure that the black wire to the stomp switch isn't permanently grounded because that kills the dirty signal.  Be sure to inspect everywhere because there may be more than one problem.


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## longwetsocks

Thank you Chuck! I will check the three of those after work.


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## longwetsocks

Alright, I reflowed every thing on the board aside from what's under the volume pot. The black wire is grounded when the pedal is off but not grounded when it's on. Still not getting a good gain sound out of this thing.


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## Chuck D. Bones

Do you have an anal probe audio probe?


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## Robert

I can't explain why it would cause the problem you're having, but check your jack wiring.   The blue and yellow wires don't appear to be going to the right lugs of the Input / Output jacks.

On the Input jack the blue wire should be connected to the left lug (closest to the left side of the enclosure).
On the Output jack the yellow wire should be on the bottom lug (closest to the PCB / dual pot).



longwetsocks said:


> View attachment 3023


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## longwetsocks

Robert said:


> I can't explain why it would cause the problem you're having, but check your jack wiring.   The blue and yellow wires don't appear to be going to the right lugs of the Input / Output jacks.
> 
> On the Input jack the blue wire should be connected to the left lug (closest to the left side of the enclosure).
> On the Output jack the yellow wire should be on the bottom lug (closest to the PCB / dual pot).



Yeah I had those wired up wrong but fixed them last week. The way I had it originally, I was getting no sound at all, obviously. Also Chuck, I do not have an Audio Probe


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## longwetsocks

I have another Kliche Mini PCB and parts to build a second pedal cause I was going to build one for a friend. I may go ahead and build that one to compare.


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## zgrav

the good news is that it is easy to build an audio probe out of a few parts you likely have at hand.


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## Chuck D. Bones

I would advise that you get the first one fixed, then make more.  Like zgrav said, an AP is easy to make with stuff you already have.  
Here's how to make one.


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## longwetsocks

Wow you're right. That is extremely easy to build. I should have a 100nf laying around.


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## Chuck D. Bones

Doesn't even need to be 100nF, but they seem to be the most common so that's what everyone uses.


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## longwetsocks

Something interesting I noticed last night while testing: I measured the resistance at the 100K gain pot in the circuit. The first section of the dual pot was measuring 1.5K Ohm and the second section of pins was measuring 35K Ohm. With a resistance as low as 1.5K in circuit, the signal will basically amount to nothing right? Explaining why I hear no gain. What could cause that resistance to shoot so low?


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## Chuck D. Bones

Can you be more specific?  Which pins and where was the pot set?  Power was off, correct?


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## Michi1590

Hey Guys,

i finished my second pedal from pedalpcb, the kliche mini. 
Now i have some problem with the circuit. The pedal is working in its standard function. So switch on/off is working. Also tone & volume control is fine. But the circuit itself doesnt work. The Gain control nearly doesnt change the sound. No distortion at all. In my opinion the sound gets a bit thicker when i activate the pedal, but very minimal.

Can anybody help me pls. 

Greetings, Michael


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## longwetsocks

Can't remember if power was on or off but this picture should explain it. Hopefully I was testing correct. Turning the knob obviously changed the resistance of the middle pin, but the overall resistance on the outer pin was extremely low. Both sets of pins tested 100K out of circuit.


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## Chuck D. Bones

If the power was on then all bets are off.  
There is a 1.5K resistor (R6) in parallel with the Clean side of the GAIN pot, so the 1.5K measurement is to be expected.  The Dirty side of the GAIN pot connects to the inputs of IC1.2 thru a 2K (R9) and 15K (R10) resistor.  When the power is off, IC2 is not an opamp any more, it's just a jumble of resistors, transistors and diodes.  The 35K reading is plausible.  Bottom line: measuring and interpreting resistance in-circuit requires looking at the schematic and evaluating the circuit.  

Can we get on with the audio probing now?


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## longwetsocks

Audio probing will commence once I get the time some time this week.


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## music6000

longwetsocks said:


> Alright, I reflowed every thing on the board aside from what's under the volume pot. The black wire is grounded when the pedal is off but not grounded when it's on. Still not getting a good gain sound out of this thing.


Can we have a Picture of the Back of the Board, It needs viewing.


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