# Triangulum problem



## dlazzarini

I’ve just recently built the Triangulum build. It’s a working build but something sounds off. When I turn the level up to a decent level or about half way up I get a really bassy heavily saturated sound that starts to cut out and break apart when heavy power chords are hit. Like it’s being overwhelmed. Ive got 9volts on pins 1/8 which are connected at VCC from what I can tell I’ve only got 5.6 volts


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

Where are you measuring 5.6V?  Do your electrolytic caps have the correct voltage rating?  I can't read the IC part numbers in the pic.  The best troubleshooting tool I can offer is a careful visual inspection.  Most problems can be traced to a bad solder joint or a solder bridge.  Those cheap stamped-pin IC sockets are also suspect.  If you're gonna use IC sockets, I recommend spending a few extra pennies to get the machined-pin sockets.  What is connected to the output of this pedal?  The Level control is at the end, so it should have no effect on the circuit operation unless the next pedal in the chain is loading this one down.


----------



## dlazzarini

Chuck D. Bones said:


> Where are you measuring 5.6V?  Do your electrolytic caps have the correct voltage rating?  I can't read the IC part numbers in the pic.  The best troubleshooting tool I can offer is a careful visual inspection.  Most problems can be traced to a bad solder joint or a solder bridge.  Those cheap stamped-pin IC sockets are also suspect.  If you're gonna use IC sockets, I recommend spending a few extra pennies to get the machined-pin sockets.  What is connected to the output of this pedal?  The Level control is at the end, so it should have no effect on the circuit operation unless the next pedal in the chain is loading this one down.


Thanks for the advice. I’ve got the 5.6 volts at the VCC on schematic. All of the caps are more than adequate 35 to 50volts. I cannot find any bridged solder and I reflowed anything that looked suspect. I haven’t got to the point of putting the pedal in my board. As soon as you play on the heavy side is when it cuts out and crumbles. I’m new to building so I’ve still got a lot to learn. I’ll continue troubleshooting and hopefully find it. Thanks again for the advice. In the future I will use better sockets.


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

Let me make sure I'm following you.  You are measuring +5.6V from pin 8 to pin 1 on IC1?  What do you get when you measure from pin 1 to pin 3 on IC100? Are either of the ICs getting warm?  Tell me what's going on with the red, white & black wires soldered to the Level control pads.  What is supporting the board?
I like your granite countertop, I have the same pattern in my kitchen.


----------



## dlazzarini

Chuck D. Bones said:


> Let me make sure I'm following you.  You are measuring +5.6V from pin 8 to pin 1 on IC1?  What do you get when you measure from pin 1 to pin 3 on IC100? Are either of the ICs getting warm?  Tell me what's going on with the red, white & black wires soldered to the Level control pads.  What is supporting the board?
> I like your granite countertop, I have the same pattern in my kitchen.


Sorry. Pins 1 and 8 I’m getting 9volts. I haven’t measured from 1 to 3 I don’t believe. Im not really sure yet where I’m supposed to measure to get the doubled voltage. I’m still learning. I was measuring somewhere around where D106 and C107 connect I believe when I got the 5.6 volts. The wires connected to the level pads are just soldered to the pot. I didn’t have the correct value pot with a PCB mount so I used one with lugs. I don’t yet have the board mounted on the standoffs. The pot housing is covered with a shell so I know it’s not shorting out. Do you know where I’m supposed to be getting the doubled voltage? I haven’t quite sorted that out.


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

[erroneous statement deleted by author]
Try this.  Connect the - probe (the black one) on your meter to the ground lug on the output jack.  Now touch the + (red) probe to IC100 pin 1.  Record the reading.  Now move the red probe to IC 1 pin 7.  Record the reading.
The first reading should be close to +9V.  The second reading should be close to +30V.  IC100 is sometimes called a voltage doubler, but it's more than that.  It's a voltage multiplier.  Quick way to get an estimated output voltage for this configuration is to count the number of capacitors connected to IC100 pin 2 and add 1.  Multiply that value by 9 (the voltage at IC100 pin 1).  Now subtract 1V for each diode (D101 - D106).  9 * (3 + 1) - 6 = 30.  This is a rough estimate; the diode drops might be a little less than 1V each depending on the load current and diode part #.


----------



## dlazzarini

Chuck D. Bones said:


> Now that I look closer at the schematic, the pinout for IC1 is wrong.  Vcc goes to pin 7, not pin 8.  Looks like it's correct on the PCB layout, so no worries.
> Try this.  Connect the - probe (the black one) on your meter to the ground lug on the output jack.  Now touch the + (red) probe to IC100 pin 1.  Record the reading.  Now move the red probe to IC 1 pin 7.  Record the reading.
> The first reading should be close to +9V.  The second reading should be close to +30V.  IC100 is sometimes called a voltage doubler, but it's more than that.  It's a voltage multiplier.  Quick way to get an estimated output voltage for this configuration is to count the number of capacitors connected to IC100 pin 2 and add 1.  Multiply that value by 9 (the voltage at IC100 pin 1).  Now subtract 1V for each diode (D101 - D106).  9 * (3 + 1) - 6 = 30.  This is a rough estimate; the diode drops might be a little less than 1V each depending on the load current and diode part #.


Thanks a ton for taking the time with me to help troubleshoot. I am not able to perform this at the moment but will let you know the outcome ASAP. Thanks again


----------



## AlexSwan

Hello! Did you run triangulum? I also have problems with this (((


----------



## Devoureddeth

Your 3pdt soldering looks suspect need to fill in those bad boys.


----------



## Robert

Chuck D. Bones said:


> Now that I look closer at the schematic, the pinout for IC1 is wrong.  Vcc goes to pin 7, not pin 8.  Looks like it's correct on the PCB layout, so no worries.



What schematic has an incorrect pinout?


----------



## dlazzarini

AlexSwan said:


> Hello! Did you run triangulum? I also have problems with this (((


What is your build doing?


----------



## dlazzarini

Devoureddeth said:


> Your 3pdt soldering looks suspect need to fill in those bad boys.


I can see what you’re getting at but I have no holes. I was afraid of applying too much heat for too long and melting the underside of the switch.


----------



## dlazzarini

dlazzarini said:


> Thanks a ton for taking the time with me to help troubleshoot. I am not able to perform this at the moment but will let you know the outcome ASAP. Thanks again


Ok I just used my meter as you directed. I got the 9volts at pin 1 on IC100 but the 5.6volts I was getting before is exactly what I’m getting at pin 7 on IC 1. I don’t think it’s the IC’s. I swapped them both out with 2 known good ones and have the same problem. I think I’ve got something else going on.


----------



## Devoureddeth

Unless it is a super bad quality 3pdt it should be fine I run my iron around 375 and it takes a brief hit to heat it up and then I fill it in. It might not/ probably is not the issue but it would eliminate a potential problem.


----------



## dlazzarini

Devoureddeth said:


> Unless it is a super bad quality 3pdt it should be fine I run my iron around 375 and it takes a brief hit to heat it up and then I fill it in. It might not/ probably is not the issue but it would eliminate a potential problem.


Thanks for the advice. Just learning and any little bit is helpful


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

In any case, a bad stompswitch connection would not explain the low voltage at Vcc.  Something in the charge pump chain is broken.  Let's assume that each 1N4001 drops 0.6V.  If the charge pump is completely dead, all of the diodes would be on all of the time and the voltage at Vcc would be 
9 - (6 * 0.6) = 5.4V.  Which is pretty damned close to the 5.6V you are measuring.  If IC100 is known to be good, then there has got to be a bad connection somewhere.  Inspect all of the solder joints on IC100 and C102 - C106.  I think the IC socket is the most likely suspect.  Once the tabs in those stamped metal sockets get sprung, they are useless.  You're sure you're using a TC1044 for IC100, yes?  I can't read the part number in the picture.


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

Devoureddeth said:


> Unless it is a super bad quality 3pdt it should be fine I run my iron around 375 and it takes a brief hit to heat it up and then I fill it in. It might not/ probably is not the issue but it would eliminate a potential problem.


The glass transition temp of any epoxy they would use on those switches is well below 375F.  I worry about messing up those switches after having a bad experience with a 4PDT switch.  Those are big holes for rectangular solder terminals and it is not necessary to fill them up.  Tack 'em on both sides and you're good to go.  There is no mechanical stress on the solder joints.  Rectangular holes would be much better.  And more expensive.


----------



## dlazzarini

Chuck D. Bones said:


> In any case, a bad stompswitch connection would not explain the low voltage at Vcc.  Something in the charge pump chain is broken.  Let's assume that each 1N4001 drops 0.6V.  If the charge pump is completely dead, all of the diodes would be on all of the time and the voltage at Vcc would be
> 9 - (6 * 0.6) = 5.4V.  Which is pretty damned close to the 5.6V you are measuring.  If IC100 is known to be good, then there has got to be a bad connection somewhere.  Inspect all of the solder joints on IC100 and C102 - C106.  I think the IC socket is the most likely suspect.  Once the tabs in those stamped metal sockets get sprung, they are useless.  You're sure you're using a TC1044 for IC100, yes?  I can't read the part number in the picture.


Yessir it’s the correct IC. When I get a chance I will take your advice. Maybe get rid of the socket completely and solder straight to the board. I’ll let you know what I find. Thank you again.


----------



## Devoureddeth

Chuck D. Bones said:


> The glass transition temp of any epoxy they would use on those switches is well below 375F.  I worry about messing up those switches after having a bad experience with a 4PDT switch.  Those are big holes for rectangular solder terminals and it is not necessary to fill them up.  Tack 'em on both sides and you're good to go.  There is no mechanical stress on the solder joints.  Rectangular holes would be much better.  And more expensive.


Everyone has their way I guess, but I still stand by my statement that the soldering on the 3pdt look sketch.


----------



## zgrav

I would not solder the charge pump directly into your board, but would replace the socket if your socket is bad.  Much easier to swap out a part if it is socketed so long as your socket is not the problem  :  ^ )    You can use your DMM to see if you have continuity between the pins on your charge pump and whatever they are supposed to connect to as shown in your circuit diagram.


----------



## dlazzarini

I’ve just recently built the Triangulum build. It’s a working build but something sounds off. When I turn the level up to a decent level or about half way up I get a really bassy heavily saturated sound that starts to cut out and break apart when heavy power chords are hit. Like it’s being overwhelmed. Ive got 9volts on pins 1/8 which are connected at VCC from what I can tell I’ve only got 5.6 volts


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

Robert said:


> What schematic has an incorrect pinout?


Never mind, I was misreading the IC1.1 symbols on Triangulum & Integral.  The power pins are shown correctly down at the bottom of the schematic as IC1.2.


----------



## AlexSwan

dlazzarini said:


> What is your build doing?


Absolutley same problems. Bypass is ok, but when pedal engaged no sound... (  9v on pin1/8 ic100, when ic100 is out, about 6.5v when ic100 is pushed, and 5.6v on pin7 tl071, all diodes d101-106 and conders c102-107 correct (, i try 7660scpaz , same result. And 100% all parts working, i tested even part with tester, expet IC (

I try make new build.


----------



## dlazzarini

AlexSwan said:


> Absolutley same problems. Bypass is ok, but when pedal engaged no sound... (  9v on pin1/8 ic100, when ic100 is out, about 6.5v when ic100 is pushed, and 5.6v on pin7 tl071, all diodes d101-106 and conders c102-107 correct (, i try 7660scpaz , same result. And 100% all parts working, i tested even part with tester, expet IC (
> 
> I try make new build.


I’ve been on vacation but I’m back now and gonna play with it some more. Let you know if I come up with anything


----------



## dlazzarini

zgrav said:


> I would not solder the charge pump directly into your board, but would replace the socket if your socket is bad.  Much easier to swap out a part if it is socketed so long as your socket is not the problem  :  ^ )    You can use your DMM to see if you have continuity between the pins on your charge pump and whatever they are supposed to connect to as shown in your circuit diagram.


I understand the ease of swapping out parts but am I also in danger of burning up the IC? I’m pretty fluent at soldering but I’m not too familiar with how fragile or not fragile op amps are.


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

ICs & silicon transistors can tolerate soldering just fine, but keep the time where the iron is touching the leads to a minimum.  Here's my method for soldering ICs: first solder two opposite corner leads to keep it in place while soldering the other leads.  Wait several sec for the device to cool down, then solder a lead, wait, solder another lead, wait, etc.  If you have multiple ICs, alternate between them so while one is being soldered, the others are cooling.  Use a temperature-controlled iron and a small tip.  Semiconductors always get installed at the end, so they're not getting heated while you solder everything else.  The only exception is board-mounted pots go on at the very last because they obscure some of the other solder joints.  Through-plated holes do not need to be completely filled from top to bottom, just all the way around on one side of the board.  Here's how the NASA-trained pros solder: 1. apply a tiny drop of flux to each joint to be soldered. 2. melt a good sized puddle of solder onto the soldering iron tip and then transfer that to the solder joint.  With most joints, you will not need to feed any more solder than that.  The advantage of this method is that you're not heating the joint while you're waiting for the solder to melt because it's already molten.  Inspect the joints with a magnifier and touch-up as req'd.  At the end, flood the board with alcohol and scrub off the excess flux with a toothbrush.


----------



## dlazzarini

Chuck D. Bones said:


> ICs & silicon transistors can tolerate soldering just fine, but keep the time where the iron is touching the leads to a minimum.  Here's my method for soldering ICs: first solder two opposite corner leads to keep it in place while soldering the other leads.  Wait several sec for the device to cool down, then solder a lead, wait, solder another lead, wait, etc.  If you have multiple ICs, alternate between them so while one is being soldered, the others are cooling.  Use a temperature-controlled iron and a small tip.  Semiconductors always get installed at the end, so they're not getting heated while you solder everything else.  The only exception is board-mounted pots go on at the very last because they obscure some of the other solder joints.  Through-plated holes do not need to be completely filled from top to bottom, just all the way around on one side of the board.  Here's how the NASA-trained pros solder: 1. apply a tiny drop of flux to each joint to be soldered. 2. melt a good sized puddle of solder onto the soldering iron tip and then transfer that to the solder joint.  With most joints, you will not need to feed any more solder than that.  The advantage of this method is that you're not heating the joint while you're waiting for the solder to melt because it's already molten.  Inspect the joints with a magnifier and touch-up as req'd.  At the end, flood the board with alcohol and scrub off the excess flux with a toothbrush.


Thank you again Chuck. You have been extremely helpful through this build. I’m in the process of making some changes now to see if I can get this thing going. It’s too easy and inexpensive to just order another board and parts. I’m really enjoying the challenge. Keeps my brain busy.


----------



## dlazzarini

dlazzarini said:


> Thank you again Chuck. You have been extremely helpful through this build. I’m in the process of making some changes now to see if I can get this thing going. It’s too easy and inexpensive to just order another board and parts. I’m really enjoying the challenge. Keeps my brain busy.


Boy I’m having one hell of a time with this build for some reason. I went ahead and got rid of the sockets and soldered the IC’s straight to the board. I’ve now got the correct voltages that you told me I should get. 9v at pin1 on IC100 and 31v at pin 7 on IC1. Problem is now I’ve got no sound at all. Bypass I have sound, engage I’ve got nothing but a blue led. I don’t see any wires physically broken or crossed. I had sound when engaged before but it was weak and broken up. Now I’ve got the voltage but no sound. Might be time to walk away for a bit, lol


----------



## zgrav

It's pretty easy to destroy a trace on a PCB when you are unsoldering components from it, especially a number of points in a row.  You could check for continuity of the IC pins to make sure they actually connect to the others parts as shown on the circuit diagram.  Seems likely you may have a broken trace in the audio path now.


----------



## dlazzarini

zgrav said:


> It's pretty easy to destroy a trace on a PCB when you are unsoldering components from it, especially a number of points in a row.  You could check for continuity of the IC pins to make sure they actually connect to the others parts as shown on the circuit diagram.  Seems likely you may have a broken trace in the audio path now.


Thanks for the advice. That’s a possibility although I think I was pretty careful. I think I may take a few days away from it and come back fresh. I built the integrated eq and it fired up the first go. I know this build is very similar. Funny thing is I own a Fortin 33 but there’s just something about building your own stuff. I’ll get back to it. Thanks again


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

Look for a broken wire.  If you had the unit fully assembled and then pulled the board up to work on it, there is a good chance one or more of the wires was stressed and broke.


----------



## dlazzarini

Chuck D. Bones said:


> Look for a broken wire.  If you had the unit fully assembled and then pulled the board up to work on it, there is a good chance one or more of the wires was stressed and broke.


Yeah thanks that was what I was thinking as well. I haven’t went back to it yet. Just finished the muzzle. What an awesome gate. Smokes my ns-2.


----------



## dlazzarini

Chuck D. Bones said:


> Look for a broken wire.  If you had the unit fully assembled and then pulled the board up to work on it, there is a good chance one or more of the wires was stressed and broke.


Hey Chuck, got this bad boy working tonight. I’m not 100% positive what the problem was but I’m still leaning towards a broken wire/connection somewhere. I did too many things to pinpoint what it was. Asides from soldering the IC’s directly to the board, I touched up all the solder on the pads to make sure there was no cold joints. Ran all new hook up wire and and hardwired the 3pdt. Fired right up. Ran it side by side with my fortin33 and I really can’t notice any difference whatsoever. They really sound identical to me. Thanks for all your help. You’re a lifesaver.


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

You're very welcome.  It can be quite satisfying to get the ^%&# thing working after fighting with it for a week.  And it makes us appreciate it all the more when they work the first time they're fired up.  

They should sound identical because there is no voodoo going on inside that pedal.  Why someone would pay over $500 for a used one is baffling.


----------



## Mourguitars

Judging by this photo above  1st page it looks like I wired the BC550's in wrong (face palm ) ...also I have the pot wired maybe upside down main body is over the IC chips on the backside, I tacked that in . By the looks of this picture above the Pot is facing upward towards the input jack correct ?

Mike


----------



## Chuck D. Bones

The LEVEL pot should not be overlapping the board.  Only one of the transistors (Q1) does anything.  Q2 does nothing, no point in reinstalling it in that location.  Hooking Q1 up backwards could have damaged or degraded it, so when you remove Q1, I recommend replacing it with Q2.


----------



## Mourguitars

Chuck D. Bones said:


> The LEVEL pot should not be overlapping the board.  Only one of the transistors (Q1) does anything.  Q2 does nothing, no point in reinstalling it in that location.  Hooking Q1 up backwards could have damaged or degraded it, so when you remove Q1, I recommend replacing it with Q2.



Thank you for the reply and great info Chuck D , I know ill make mistakes that's how you learn tho...should have caught the transistors just tired eyes , the pot I second guessed my self...im learning ! 

Thanks again !

Mike


----------



## dlazzarini

Mourguitars said:


> Thank you for the reply and great info Chuck D , I know ill make mistakes that's how you learn tho...should have caught the transistors just tired eyes , the pot I second guessed my self...im learning !
> 
> Thanks again !
> 
> Mike


Took me 3 times to get this one right. It was one of my first pedals. I’m getting much better. Just finished the VHS and it works great. Live and learn. Lots of helpful people on this forum.


----------



## Mourguitars

dlazzarini said:


> Took me 3 times to get this one right. It was one of my first pedals. I’m getting much better. Just finished the VHS and it works great. Live and learn. Lots of helpful people on this forum.



Yea i took my time with this one but still made mistakes , i did better with my first build i believe because i had other peoples builds gut shots..pics help a lot when you learning..and i agree there are helpful forum members here !

Mike


----------



## dlazzarini

Mourguitars said:


> Yea i took my time with this one but still made mistakes , i did better with my first build i believe because i had other peoples builds gut shots..pics help a lot when you learning..and i agree there are helpful forum members here !
> 
> Mike


It’s been a while since this build. I just went back and looked at the gut shot. I see that I’ve got much better and more neat. The reason the level pot may have been confusing for you is because I didn’t have one of the correct value with PCB mounts so I just wired it in. The PCB is sitting further forward in the box than it would have been if I had the proper pot. In that pic I believe it’s just floating there. The current finished build I have now is corrected. I swapped out the pot and removed the cheap style sockets. Soldered the ic’s To the board.


----------



## Anotherpedalbuild

I don't mean to sound critical, but there's quite a bit of copper showing where the pcb has been scratched, it may be an idea to check for track damage or bridges where you can. I recommend using a pcb holder for soldering (the rotating double clamp ones rather than the crocodile clip version). Good luck, the Triangulum is great.


----------



## dlazzarini

I’ve just recently built the Triangulum build. It’s a working build but something sounds off. When I turn the level up to a decent level or about half way up I get a really bassy heavily saturated sound that starts to cut out and break apart when heavy power chords are hit. Like it’s being overwhelmed. Ive got 9volts on pins 1/8 which are connected at VCC from what I can tell I’ve only got 5.6 volts


----------



## dlazzarini

Anotherpedalbuild said:


> I don't mean to sound critical, but there's quite a bit of copper showing where the pcb has been scratched, it may be an idea to check for track damage or bridges where you can. I recommend using a pcb holder for soldering (the rotating double clamp ones rather than the crocodile clip version). Good luck, the Triangulum is great.


Yes I have since acquired a good PCB holder. This was one of my first goes at it. I have the Triangulum working fine now and it is a great pedal. I’m on about my 7th pedal now and I’ve greatly improved thanks to the folks on this forum and my persistent thirst for knowledge.


----------



## dlazzarini

Anotherpedalbuild said:


> I don't mean to sound critical, but there's quite a bit of copper showing where the pcb has been scratched, it may be an idea to check for track damage or bridges where you can. I recommend using a pcb holder for soldering (the rotating double clamp ones rather than the crocodile clip version). Good luck, the Triangulum is great.





Anotherpedalbuild said:


> I don't mean to sound critical, but there's quite a bit of copper showing where the pcb has been scratched, it may be an idea to check for track damage or bridges where you can. I recommend using a pcb holder for soldering (the rotating double clamp ones rather than the crocodile clip version). Good luck, the Triangulum is great.


this is the VHS I just finished. I’m learning


----------



## Mourguitars

dlazzarini said:


> this is the VHS I just finished. I’m learning



Pretty neat and clean work, congrats !

Mike


----------



## dlazzarini

Thank you. I’m now working on the whole water slide decal thingy. I’m finding that the color of the enclosure has a bigger impact on the final product than I anticipated. Gotta figure this out.


----------



## Mourguitars

I had it working for like 45 sec then stoped , i did replace Q1 and Q2 and put the pot the right way. I spent hours trouble shooting so ..in the live and learn box of mistakes and buy another board and start over !

Mike


----------



## zgrav

If you set it aside, don't be surprised if you pick it up after a few more builds and see something to fix that will do the trick.


----------



## Mourguitars

zgrav said:


> If you set it aside, don't be surprised if you pick it up after a few more builds and see something to fix that will do the trick.



Thank you for the words of encouragement !   I looked this morning found another cold solder joint on a ground wire also Tadya sent me a solid wire that i used while bending it broke..fixed... but i thought that might work since the A5k pot is detached and used on the pot and wires going to breakout board might keep it suspended vs a more flexible  wire to give you a insight to my thinking....but could have used foam to separate and keep from touching..

But my $25 iron got to hot and when touching like 3 seconds using a solder sucker the whole metal ring came out of the board...it was so hot i watched the fine tip slowly bend before my eyes..lol...bought a Hakko Station this morning, that weller was rated at 925 degrees i think ,way to hot !

Ill just buy a new board, populate and solder up the input/output jacks, power and breakout board and pot...Try again !

Mike


----------



## Mourguitars

zgrav said:


> If you set it aside, don't be surprised if you pick it up after a few more builds and see something to fix that will do the trick.




Words to live by....i got it working !

Went back thru every single solder joint , anything that i glanced at twice i reflowed the solder...then rechecked again !

Didn't have a PCB pot  to hook up to the board used a reg one , in cased it foam so nothing shorted and success !

Mike


----------

