# Big muff Green Russian Vs Civilian



## pcb rookie (Feb 13, 2022)

Looked at the component difference between the Green Russian and the Civilian.

I knew there was not much difference between the both and they are from the same era but I was surprised to see that the only difference was R22 that connects to the Q4 emitter (2k vs 2k7). I will probably socket R22 and experience with both. 

just curious to see what are your thoughts and experience on how that single resistor impacts the tone sonic wise ...

I own a SUF Civilian and SUF '73 Muff. Curious to see how they will compare.

Listing to stories about the muffs in those days, there was difference in components due to tolerance and/or, components availability in what was to be an identical model/version ...


----------



## Dan M (Feb 13, 2022)

The feedback caps are different too.  It’s small, 430 vs 470, but you might hear a difference if you socket them.  I haven’t built either one, I’m just guessing.


----------



## BuddytheReow (Feb 13, 2022)

In a muff circuit, tweaking the q4 emitter will only change the volume output. The lower the resistance the greater the gain. Q4s purpose is to recover the volume drop from the tone stack in the previous stage


----------



## pcb rookie (Feb 13, 2022)

Dan M said:


> The feedback caps are different too.  It’s small, 430 vs 470, but you might hear a difference if you socket them.  I haven’t built either one, I’m just guessing.


I missed that ... you are correct! 


BuddytheReow said:


> In a muff circuit, tweaking the q4 emitter will only change the volume output. The lower the resistance the greater the gain. Q4s purpose is to recover the volume drop from the tone stack in the previous stage


Thank you for clarifying the purpose of Q4 and it's relation to R22. Very helpful!


----------



## Coda (Feb 13, 2022)

I built a CW/GR with a toggle. The CW is slightly quieter, and has a tighter low end, with a creamier tone to my ear. The Green Russian has that pronounced bass (I liken it to Jay Leno’s chin), and more of a hollow quality to the tone, compared to the CW…


----------



## pcb rookie (Feb 14, 2022)

Coda said:


> I built a CW/GR with a toggle. The CW is slightly quieter, and has a tighter low end, with a creamier tone to my ear. The Green Russian has that pronounced bass (I liken it to Jay Leno’s chin), and more of a hollow quality to the tone, compared to the CW…


I love muffs so I'll probably just build both. Curious to know how you managed your build to be able to toggle between the two versions ...


----------



## thesmokingman (Feb 14, 2022)

the soviet transistors are lower gain and the diodes have a lower Vf ... these are fairly important details


----------



## Coda (Feb 14, 2022)

pcb rookie said:


> I love muffs so I'll probably just build both. Curious to know how you managed your build to be able to toggle between the two versions ...



https://forum.pedalpcb.com/threads/muscovite-muff….7846/


----------



## pcb rookie (Feb 14, 2022)

thesmokingman said:


> the soviet transistors are lower gain and the diodes have a lower Vf ... these are fairly important details


What Hfe should l be targeting for? I was planning on using the 2n5088. Should I switch to a different transistor or just be selective with the 2n5088 I have on hand? I have about 25 right now and they are in the 500-600 Hfe range. 

Currently doing the Stomp '75 violet rams head before I was going GR/Civ. Any Hfe I should be targeting for this version?


----------



## pcb rookie (Feb 14, 2022)

Coda said:


> https://forum.pedalpcb.com/threads/muscovite-muff….7846/


Wow ... that is just amazing! My current level of knowledge/TechConfidence ain't high enough to go full speed into merging these two under the same roof for now but I just book mark your post about your build and I'll put this one in my bucket list!


----------



## thesmokingman (Feb 14, 2022)

the diodes tested out at .525V at 1mA (closest would be 1N400x rectifier diodes) and the hfe was averaging in the neighborhood of 350 which is lower than 2N5088 but higher than 2N3904 ... depending on how they test out, 2N4401 and BC547 are probable candidates


----------



## pcb rookie (Feb 14, 2022)

pcb rookie said:


> Wow ... that is just amazing! My current level of knowledge/TechConfidence ain't high enough to go full speed into merging these two under the same roof for now but I just book mark your post about your build and I'll put this one in my bucket list!


Unless someone very (extremely) patient would walk me through it!


----------



## thesmokingman (Feb 14, 2022)

I should have expanded on this some ... I went out and purchased a small lot of both the kt3102e transistors and the kd521a from the russian federation a few years back ... I was expecting the transistors to test higher as the shared forum knowledge has them between 400 - 1K of hfe making the whole thing an alleged moot point. There's also the electrical engineering argument to be made that anything over 100 hfe should technically work the same in-circuit ... that's not been my experience as I once tried with some NTE123 and ended up with something very similar in sound to the box of rock and much less like a big muff

the diodes being lower in forward voltage does lend a little more to the adjective/adverb salad of descriptors regarding the difference between the older sovtek stuff and other muffs


----------



## pcb rookie (Feb 14, 2022)

thesmokingman said:


> the diodes tested out at .525V at 1mA (closest would be 1N400x rectifier diodes) and the hfe was averaging in the neighborhood of 350 which is lower than 2N5088 but higher than 2N3904 ... depending on how they test out, 2N4401 and BC547 are probable candidates


I've got 1n4001, 4002 and 4006. I'll mesure my stack to see what test close to .525v @ 1mA 
I've got some BC548B, 548C, 549C and 550B but no BC547 or 2N4401. I'll order some and until then I'll socket the closest transistor until then!


----------



## Coda (Feb 14, 2022)

pcb rookie said:


> I've got 1n4001, 4002 and 4006. I'll mesure my stack to see what test close to .525v @ 1mA
> I've got some BC548B, 548C, 549C and 550B but no BC547 or 2N4401. I'll order some and until then I'll socket the closest transistor until then!


4001 will be fine, as will 548B/C. At a point, its all splitting hairs, anyway...


----------



## Dan M (Feb 14, 2022)

It looks like Coda used a 4PDT switch to switch 4 values at the same time.  In the picture, it's easiest to see what is happening with R22.  A blue wire links the center of the switch to one R22 pad.  Then depending on whether the switch is UP or DOWN determines which of the 2 resistors is in the loop.  Same thing for the 3 cap selections.

I remember seeing gut shots of an early Black Arts Pharaoh.  It was built on a GGG Big Muff board and used that method to switch the clipping diodes.


----------



## pcb rookie (Feb 14, 2022)

Dan M said:


> It looks like Coda used a 4PDT switch to switch 4 values at the same time.  In the picture, it's easiest to see what is happening with R22.  A blue wire links the center of the switch to one R22 pad.  Then depending on whether the switch is UP or DOWN determines which of the 2 resistors is in the loop.  Same thing for the 3 cap selections.
> 
> I remember seeing gut shots of an early Black Arts Pharaoh.  It was built on a GGG Big Muff board and used that method to switch the clipping diodes.



https://forum.pedalpcb.com/threads/muscovite-muff….7846/

Yep ... with your comment, I now understand how the resistors are connecting/wired. So if I understand clearly, I do the same with the capacitors? ...

1- Solder together on leg each of 470p and 430p caps
2- Solder the remaining legs to 1st and 3rd row lugs of the 4PDT
3- Solder a wire from the 430/470p soldered leg to one of the component contact eyelet on the PCB
4- Wire the matching center row lug of the 4PDT to the opposite matches contact on the PCB
5- Repeat twice for the 2 other caps and repeat to finalize with the resistors.

.... did I get this right?


----------



## Dan M (Feb 14, 2022)

Seems right to me.  Just make sure you put all 4 parts of each "group" on the same side of the switch.


----------



## Coda (Feb 14, 2022)

pcb rookie said:


> Yep ... with your comment, I now understand how the resistors are connecting/wired. So if I understand clearly, I do the same with the capacitors? ...
> 
> 1- Solder together on leg each of 470p and 430p caps
> 2- Solder the remaining legs to 1st and 3rd row lugs of the 4PDT
> ...


Edit: reading through your post again, you are correct. Just make sure you have traced the spots on the PCB so you know which pad is which. This is where the sockets come in handy. I'll keep my original response below, just in case you understand too clearly and want to be a bit more confused...

Original response: Center row of the switch is the input. The two outer rows are output. You have to first trace the components on the PCB to know which side the signal enters and which side it exits. Pop some sockets in for those components. The "in" pad of the various components goes to a center lug of the toggle (soldered in place at the switch). Next, the top lug gets one leg of one component, and the bottom lug gets one leg from the other component. The remaining two legs are twisted together, along with another wire, which runs back to the corresponding "out" pad on the PCB.


----------



## Matmosphere (Feb 14, 2022)

Just to chime in, I recently finished a CW muff but used 470pf instead of 430pf (because I had them). I used 1n4148's for the diodes. 

I tested it with 2n5088's, BC549C's, and tried MPSA13's and 18's in Q1 and Q4. All BC549's won hands down. There were no total night and day differences, none of them sounded bad. The BC549 sounded the best overall, especially on bass it is a beast. Think the 2n5088 might be preferable to some on guitar, more 70's rock sound vs something a little heavier and doomier. Honestly pretty similar on guitar, but with bass it was no contest.

Might have to try out some different diodes for the next one.

This article was very helpful:









						Coda Effects: Big Muff mods and tweaks
					

Learn more about electric guitar related electronics: DIY guitar pedals, from fuzz faces to delays and reverb, cables and circuits theory




					www.coda-effects.com


----------



## pcb rookie (Feb 14, 2022)

Coda said:


> Edit: reading through your post again, you are correct. Just make sure you have traced the spots on the PCB so you know which pad is which. This is where the sockets come in handy. I'll keep my original response below, just in case you understand too clearly and want to be a bit more confused...
> 
> Original response: Center row of the switch is the input. The two outer rows are output. You have to first trace the components on the PCB to know which side the signal enters and which side it exits. Pop some sockets in for those components. The "in" pad of the various components goes to a center lug of the toggle (soldered in place at the switch). Next, the top lug gets one leg of one component, and the bottom lug gets one leg from the other component. The remaining two legs are twisted together, along with another wire, which runs back to the corresponding "out" pad on the PCB.


Great! I would have missed on knowing which pad was the in and which was the out. I will go ahead with the CW/GR toggle build. Thanks for jumping in!


----------



## pcb rookie (Feb 14, 2022)

Matmosphere said:


> Just to chime in, I recently finished a CW muff but used 470pf instead of 430pf (because I had them). I used 1n4148's for the diodes.
> 
> I tested it with 2n5088's, BC549C's, and tried MPSA13's and 18's in Q1 and Q4. All BC549's won hands down. There were no total night and day differences, none of them sounded bad. The BC549 sounded the best overall, especially on bass it is a beast. Think the 2n5088 might be preferable to some on guitar, more 70's rock sound vs something a little heavier and doomier. Honestly pretty similar on guitar, but with bass it was no contest.
> 
> ...


I'll socket the transistors and play with them but it sounds like the BC54's would be good contenders ...


----------



## Coda (Feb 14, 2022)

pcb rookie said:


> Great! I would have missed on knowing which pad was the in and which was the out. I will go ahead with the CW/GR toggle build. Thanks for jumping in!



There’s a gut shot in my build report. You should be able to zoom in and trace my wiring. I could always open it up and tell you, but that would spoil the fun.


----------



## pcb rookie (Feb 15, 2022)

Coda said:


> There’s a gut shot in my build report. You should be able to zoom in and trace my wiring. I could always open it up and tell you, but that would spoil the fun.


I stood looking at the gut shot a couple of time. I'm very confident about R22 wiring. C2, I really feel like the caps on the 4PDT are connected to the right contact eyelet on the PCB so that would assume that the left eyelet is the input connecting to the center lof on the 4PDT. Would I be able to replicate to C6 and C9 safely?

One more thing I noticed is that the left eyelets of the capacitors seem to contact to the 3rd pin of the transistors (Collector). Would that help determine the input/output? 

Don't mind about spoiling the fun if you have a chance, there is still going to be plenty! 

Build docs: https://docs.pedalpcb.com/project/MuffinFuzz.pdf
Coda's post: https://forum.pedalpcb.com/threads/muscovite-muff….7846/


----------

