# Relay stomp switches....



## MichaelW (Jul 18, 2022)

Hey all, 

Apologize in advance for my ignorance, but can someone explain the advantages of using relay bypass switching?

I see the boards that @PedalPCB has been releasing and also came across the "Softie" board in my recent MBP builds.

For standard on/off switching what is the point of the additional cost of using relay switching?

(Yes, I absolutely need another rabbit hole to fall into and more stuff to buy........

TIA!


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## Diynot (Jul 18, 2022)

It’s a softer foot “click”, no popping, still “true bypass”, and supposedly longer life on the switch itself. I love to use the intelligent relay ones because they offer momentary engagement.


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## Diynot (Jul 18, 2022)

I will say, the relays are getting a little harder to find these days and can be $


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## MichaelW (Jul 18, 2022)

Diynot said:


> It’s a softer foot “click”, no popping, still “true bypass”, and supposedly longer life on the switch itself. I love to use the intelligent relay ones because they offer momentary engagement.


So most of the relay soft switches I see are "momentary" and I see them both "normally open" and normally closed". Am I correct in assuming this means the same thing a "latching" and "non-latching"? And then you would use the appropriate relay board to control the actual switching/bypass?


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## Diynot (Jul 18, 2022)

As I understand it, the Latching/non latching refers to the type of relay itself. The foot switch is always a normally open “momentary”


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## Robert (Jul 18, 2022)

You want a momentary normally-open footswitch for all of the relay bypass modules here.








						SPST Momentary Full Tone Push Button Stomp Foots / Pedal Switch
					

SPST | Momentary | Full Tone | Long Lasting | High Quality




					www.taydaelectronics.com
				




Latching relays change state and stay that way until they are changed again, so they only consume power at the moment the switching occurs.








						Kemet EA2-5SNJ - PedalPCB.com
					

DPDT Single-coil Latching Relay




					www.pedalpcb.com
				




Non-latching relays change state while power is applied, then release when the power is removed.   These consume power the entire time the pedal is active.








						Mini Relay DPDT A-4.5W-K 4.5VDC 10PIN 2Poles 1A
					

FUJITSU COMPONENTS - Get It Fast - Same Day Shipping




					www.taydaelectronics.com
				




The Intelligent Relay Bypass module is designed to work with Latching relays.    
There are two versions of the Basic Relay Bypass module, one is for Latching relays, the other is for Non-Latching relays.

What @Diynot is referring to is the hybrid mode of the Intelligent Relay Bypass module. (Similar to EQD Flex Switching, if you're familiar with that)

Pressing the footswitch will toggle the effect on or off like normal.
Pressing and _holding_ the footswitch will toggle the effect until the footswitch is released, then it will revert to the previous state.

For example, maybe you're playing "Ain't Talkin Bout Love" and you only want to kick on the phaser for those brief moments... Hold down the footswitch and it'll engage, then release and it will disengage.


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## MichaelW (Jul 18, 2022)

Robert said:


> You want a momentary normally-open footswitch for all of the relay bypass modules here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ahhh, ok I think I get it. The EQD Flex switching is the thing when you can use it like a regular footswitch OR a momentary by holding it down right?

Edit: nvm, it would help if I read your whole reply before replying hahah


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## Bricksnbeatles (Jul 18, 2022)

Even without the latching/momentary operation of the fancier relay bypass, two benefits of relay bypass are that it’s luxurious as heck, and you can add a “remote jack” so you can have a footswitch on the floor to turn on and off something that you put on top of your amp head or something like that.


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## Robert (Jul 18, 2022)

MichaelW said:


> Ahhh, ok I think I get it. The EQD Flex switching is the thing when you can use it like a regular footswitch OR a momentary by holding it down right?



That's exactly right.   You can also configure it to engage the effect at power on (useful if you keep pedals in a rack or a bottom tier of a pedalboard with a loop switcher),  and you can do the cool Channel Switching mode if you build a Multi-in-One effect pedal.


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## MattG (Jul 18, 2022)

Is there a consensus on reliability regarding relay bypass with spst, versus 3pdt?

I read a thread in some other forum a while ago, someone who built pedals commercially (meaning, dealt with high volumes), talked about the 3pdt switches being a significant source of warranty pain due to their lack of reliability. Sorry, I can’t remember which forum or who said that, though it was an older discussion. Presumably overall 3pdt quality has improved, or at least, there look to be decent options. For example, it’s not cheap, but this 3pdt foot switch is rated for 200k cycles. 30k to 50k cycles seems to be norm. 

I’ve been unable to find a spst switch with a cycle rating over 50k. But they are much easier to replace. And we also have to consider the cycle rating of the relay. And there’s always a chance for logic errors in the microcontroller program. 

If you use pin headers plus JST-type connectors (like the Aion kits), the replacement difficulty argument becomes kind of moot. 

Personally, I do like the “soft touch” feel of spst switches, but LMS sells a “feather touch” 3pdt that is almost as comfy as the spst. (Though I digress, this question is about reliability.)

Intuitively, the spst switch is simpler in construction than the 3pdt, and I usually associate simpler with better reliability. But once you add in all the additional required circuitry, the relay bypass actually seems much more complex. But soldering spst switches is nearly foolproof, but some care is required to solder the 3pdt switches.

I keep going back and forth, there’s definitely pros and cons to each (and this is strictly a question about reliability). I think I’ve identified all or at least most of the factors, but I don’t know how to weight them.


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## Bio77 (Jul 18, 2022)

3PDTs are rated at 30k cycles.  The soft touch switches are rated at 10-100 million.


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## Robert (Jul 18, 2022)

I've never had to replace a momentary SPST footswitch.   I've replaced many 3PDT footswitches.

They do make SPST footswitches that have the tactile bump to them when pressing, Suhr uses them in some of their pedals, but I'm not sure where you get them.


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## MichaelW (Jul 18, 2022)

Ok, sounds like something I might have to experiment with......just because..... 

So for just basic turning the effect on and off, with the most efficient power consumption, I would need the SPST footswitch itself, I would need this version of the board...and I would need the relay itself, correct?

I kinda like the idea of a non-click switching, since I use my hands to actuate my pedals mostly.

I've been using the 1kg pressure version of the 3PDT switches from SBP or the Oxblood red ones from LMS. 
There's definitely a "quality of life" issue between the better, soft click ones and the cheapo's (which really weren't any cheaper) that I got from Amazon or AliExpress. I just can't bring myself to buy any more of the $4.50 light green ones from LMS although they're the best. 

So my solution? Spend even more money on a board, a relay, components, IC, transistors....makes PERFCT SENSE TO ME!


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## andare (Jul 20, 2022)

MichaelW said:


> since I use my hands to actuate my pedals mostly.


so you play with your feet? no vid no did

The Intelligent Bypass is cool because you can put two effects in one enclosure and use Channel Switching Mode so that you can toggle between the two. For example I have a Fuzz face always on so I can get clean, dirty, od and fuzz with the guitar volume. When I want to add an octave I can turn on a Squidward before the FF but it doesn't sound as good as a dedicated octave fuzz. With the two relays toggling I can simply turn on my Foxx Tone Machine and it automatically turns off my FF.


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## MichaelW (Jul 20, 2022)

andare said:


> so you play with your feet? no vid no did
> 
> The Intelligent Bypass is cool because you can put two effects in one enclosure and use Channel Switching Mode so that you can toggle between the two. For example I have a Fuzz face always on so I can get clean, dirty, od and fuzz with the guitar volume. When I want to add an octave I can turn on a Squidward before the FF but it doesn't sound as good as a dedicated octave fuzz. With the two relays toggling I can simply turn on my Foxx Tone Machine and it automatically turns off my FF.


If I made a vid of what body parts I actually play guitar with it would not be "Made for Kids" on Youtube and probably be blocked.....


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## andare (Jul 20, 2022)

MichaelW said:


> If I made a vid of what body parts I actually play guitar with it would not be "Made for Kids" on Youtube and probably be blocked.....


Still better than those reaction videos


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## MichaelW (Jul 20, 2022)

andare said:


> Still better than those reaction videos


Who the heck watches those? And why? I've never understood it. "Classical Composer Reacts to The Thompson Twins" who gives a f........heh


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## Robert (Jul 20, 2022)

MichaelW said:


> If I made a vid of what body parts I actually play guitar with it would not be "Made for Kids" on Youtube and probably be blocked.....



See?  SEE??  This is exactly why I don't like to buy used guitars.


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## andare (Jul 20, 2022)

MichaelW said:


> Who the heck watches those? And why? I've never understood it. "Classical Composer Reacts to The Thompson Twins" who gives a f........heh


actually those might be useful because they tell you the chord progression and stuff. I meant the people making faces


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## Bricksnbeatles (Jul 20, 2022)

MichaelW said:


> Who the heck watches those? And why? I've never understood it. "Classical Composer Reacts to The Thompson Twins" who gives a f........heh


While I don’t watch them, I get the appeal of stuff like that or “flautist reacts to Jethro Tull” or whatever, because they could provide interesting insights into the technical aspects of stuff— like the jethro tull example, I don’t know if there are actually videos of that (I’d have to assume so!), but Ian Anderson has in incredibly bizarre technique since he’s self taught and therefore does things the technically-wrong way, which lends to his uniquely identifiable flute playing. If there was a video where a professional flautist is reacting to Jethro Tull and commenting on his embouchure, fingerings, and breathing technique, it could provide some really interesting insight for a budding flautist to see what makes Tull sound like Tull without falling into bad habits.  

The videos I don’t understand are the ones where it’s just one or two people sitting in gaming chairs reacting to an incredibly popular song that they claim to have never heard before and feigning amazement, or likewise the videos where they’re reacting to some niche of music that they probably don’t have an interest in and act like they love it. Someone sent me a Frank Zappa reaction video once and it was this couple, and they listened to the song, did a whole exaggerated fake shock thing when the lyrics would get raunchy, gave a very shallow yet heavily flawed interpretation of message of the song, and then claimed it was amazing even though they seemed to be faking interest the entire time. Clicked thru a few of their other videos, just to see a few seconds of various different videos, and as I suspected each video was the exact same formula. They evidently don’t actually care that much about the music they’re being suggested and they frankly seem disinterested throughout most of them, and then claim it’s fantastic and ask their patrons to request the next song they react to. It seems like it’s just a bunch of middle aged music nerds who are willing to pay random YouTubers to pretend to like the music they like as some weird form of validation. It’s like a prostitutional version of being in high school showing a friend a crappy song you wrote, and having them tell you it’s great because they’re being polite. Idk… weirds me out.


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## MichaelW (Jul 20, 2022)

Bricksnbeatles said:


> While I don’t watch them, I get the appeal of stuff like that or “flautist reacts to Jethro Tull” or whatever, because they could provide interesting insights into the technical aspects of stuff— like the jethro tull example, I don’t know if there are actually videos of that (I’d have to assume so!), but Ian Anderson has in incredibly bizarre technique since he’s self taught and therefore does things the technically-wrong way, which lends to his uniquely identifiable flute playing. If there was a video where a professional flautist is reacting to Jethro Tull and commenting on his embouchure, fingerings, and breathing technique, it could provide some really interesting insight for a budding flautist to see what makes Tull sound like Tull without falling into bad habits.
> 
> The videos I don’t understand are the ones where it’s just one or two people sitting in gaming chairs reacting to an incredibly popular song that they claim to have never heard before and feigning amazement, or likewise the videos where they’re reacting to some niche of music that they probably don’t have an interest in and act like they love it. Someone sent me a Frank Zappa reaction video once and it was this couple, and they listened to the song, did a whole exaggerated fake shock thing when the lyrics would get raunchy, gave a very shallow yet heavily flawed interpretation of message of the song, and then claimed it was amazing even though they seemed to be faking interest the entire time. Clicked thru a few of their other videos, just to see a few seconds of various different videos, and as I suspected each video was the exact same formula. They evidently don’t actually care that much about the music they’re being suggested and they frankly seem disinterested throughout most of them, and then claim it’s fantastic and ask their patrons to request the next song they react to. It seems like it’s just a bunch of middle aged music nerds who are willing to pay random YouTubers to pretend to like the music they like as some weird form of validation. It’s like a prostitutional version of being in high school showing a friend a crappy song you wrote, and having them tell you it’s great because they’re being polite. Idk… weirds me out.


I guess I don't understand Youtube....but I suppose people are still making money off of it. I tend to hide and leave my vids unlisted. My kids would starve if I had to make a living this way


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## Deperduci (Jul 20, 2022)

Robert said:


> See?  SEE??  This is exactly why I don't like to buy used guitars.


If you read the music for most zombie songs you CAN do a Murderface and play bass with...

seriously, I built most of my boxes with 3dpt's but also they don't get to much use. WHEN they do wear out I'll likely make something akin to that schmorg project with all the effects boards on 1-2 boards/plates and a metric buttload of socketed relay circuits


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## MattG (Jul 20, 2022)

Bio77 said:


> 3PDTs are rated at 30k cycles.  The soft touch switches are rated at 10-100 million.



Where are you seeing switches with ratings in the millions?  I looked at a number of SPST switches, this seems to be a representative sample: 50k mechanical cycles and 6k electrical cycles.


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## Bricksnbeatles (Jul 20, 2022)

MattG said:


> Where are you seeing switches with ratings in the millions?  I looked at a number of SPST switches, this seems to be a representative sample: 50k mechanical cycles and 6k electrical cycles.


I believe what was meant is that the relays are rated for 10-100 million cycles. It’s much easier to replace the two wires from a spst momentary than to desolder the 9 PCB-mounted pins or replace 9 wires


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## Bio77 (Jul 20, 2022)

MattG said:


> Where are you seeing switches with ratings in the millions?  I looked at a number of SPST switches, this seems to be a representative sample: 50k mechanical cycles and 6k electrical cycles.


Ah yes, apologies, I was remembering incorrectly.  I got those numbers from CODA's description of their relay switch circuit (link below).  It reads that the RELAY is rated at 10 to 100M. 

https://www.coda-effects.com/2016/04/relay-bypass-conception-and-relay.html


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## Robert (Jul 20, 2022)

I've had quite a few 3PDTs fail and I can assure you they never saw 30K stomps.


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