# The Ethics of Selling Clones



## twebb6778 (Oct 28, 2020)

So I've got a few pedals listed on Reverb at the moment. I always do original artwork and come up with a name, but for transparency indicate that it's a clone and where I get the pcb from.

I've recently received an email from Reverb telling me that I can't indicate that one of my listings is an OCD clone, because OCD is a trademark of Fulltone.

I find this a little strange. I mean, I'm fully aware that it's not my circuit design, but I'm not trying to pass it off as a genuine OCD, it's descriptive so people know what my build is based on. I feel like it would be _more _shady to pass this off as my own circuit.

Curious to see if anyone has had a similar experience.


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## ADAOCE (Oct 28, 2020)

It sounds like purely a trademark issue. Fulltone doesn’t want anyone but them using OCD to market a pedal regardless of how much you say it’s a clone. They would rather you find some cheeky clever name for it that sounds somewhat like it.


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## ADAOCE (Oct 28, 2020)

I feel like most of the pedal industry is artwork and hipster street cred with like 10 to 15% of builders out there actually creating novel concepts and not just tweaking an established circuit


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## Nostradoomus (Oct 28, 2020)

Well Mike Fuller is kind of a twat waffle so I’m not surprised but just call it something else. If there was really an issue nobody could market a PCB for it either.


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## twebb6778 (Oct 28, 2020)

Oh it's absolutely called something else. There's probably a reason why I was asked to remove the reference to the OCD on this one...


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## cooder (Oct 28, 2020)

Nostradoomus said:


> Well Mike Fuller is kind of a twat waffle so I’m not surprised but just call it something else. If there was really an issue nobody could market a PCB for it either.


You just made me spill my coffee over my keyboard....


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## Nostradoomus (Oct 28, 2020)

twebb6778 said:


> Oh it's absolutely called something else. There's probably a reason why I was asked to remove the reference to the OCD on this one...



Fuck yeah dude, that rules! And yeah I get it now hahaha, wow


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## twebb6778 (Oct 28, 2020)

Thanks heaps! I'm donating profits to the National Justice Project here in Australia who's main goal is to end systematic racism by offering legal aid to marginalised groups. Just trying to do anything I can to help out.


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## zgrav (Oct 28, 2020)

Heck for all we know "OCD" was just a clever way not to say "NBC"   (sort of like "HAL" in the movie 2001 was a clever way to not say "IBM")

Maybe you could just describe your pedal as a bit obsessive, compulsive, and disorderly...


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## daeg (Oct 29, 2020)

ADAOCE said:


> I feel like most of the pedal industry is artwork and hipster street cred with like 10 to 15% of builders out there actually creating novel concepts and not just tweaking an established circuit


So true. Beyond that tons of circuits were created straight off the manufacturers data sheets. That was even the case for early Fender amps I'm told.

So many builders engage in active deception too. "Designed to authentically recreate the response and feel of a Surpo S6420 Thunderbolt!" - turns out to be a one BJT transistor and two clipping diodes.


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## ADAOCE (Oct 29, 2020)

daeg said:


> So true. Beyond that tons of circuits were created straight off the manufacturers data sheets. That was even the case for early Fender amps I'm told.
> 
> So many builders engage in active deception too. "Designed to authentically recreate the response and feel of a Surpo S6420 Thunderbolt!" - turns out to be a one BJT transistor and two clipping diodes.


Hah yup it’s all marketing. JHS can run a master class but most of the big ones do it.


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## Betty Wont (Oct 29, 2020)

See how long you can list a "harmonic percolator" before the asshat that bought that name shuts your listing down.


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## Nostradoomus (Oct 29, 2020)

Torgoslayer said:


> See how long you can list a "harmonic percolator" before the asshat that bought that name shuts your listing down.



That’s when you change it to “Timbre filled Coffee Pot”


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## Betty Wont (Oct 29, 2020)

Nostradoomus said:


> That’s when you change it to “Timbre filled Coffee Pot”


LOL, I actually sell mine as "interfux harmonic coffee makers"


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## zgrav (Oct 29, 2020)

Parmonic Herculator.  : ^ )


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## megatrav (Oct 29, 2020)

Ah, the classic ethics discussion. 
I have sympathy for builders like Paul Cochrane. Not because people are making clones of the Timmy, but because companies like Vemuram make a clone, put it in a fancy enclosure and charge an *absurd* amount of money for them.

There's so many clones and mods of pedals out there, its hard to say what is "good" or "bad" ethically. You're not trying to trick people into thinking its a legit OCD, so I don't see any real issues with it... but even if you did, I'd be on your side because Mike Fuller is a terrible person and I hope no one ever buys his pedals again.


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## chongmagic (Oct 29, 2020)

I feel like it is bringing great pedals to the masses. Most of the circuits have been copied. I don't say it is an exact clone, but for those who don't have $300 to spend on something that has been around for years.


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## rectifier (Oct 29, 2020)

My opinion is: If Vemuram gets away with Selling a Timmy for 3X the price everyone should be able to sell clones, no hard feelings


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## Betty Wont (Oct 29, 2020)

rectifier said:


> My opinion is: If Vemuram gets away with Selling a Timmy for 3X the price everyone should be able to sell clones, no hard feelings


As long as Vemuram doesn't get twisted up about me selling affordable clones of THEIR clones, we are all good.


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## megatrav (Oct 30, 2020)

I am still really new to building, but its really awesome to be able to build clones of discontinued or uber expensive pedals for fairly cheap. I think many people would appreciate being to by them for less than the real thing.


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## Chuck D. Bones (Oct 30, 2020)

Reverb is quick to buckle when a copyright or trademark owner cries foul.  Basically, you can get away with it until someone complains.  As for circuit designs, there are precious few original pedal designs.  The handful of patents that do exist might be very hard to defend in court.


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## Chas Grant (Oct 30, 2020)

There are also ways around the trademarks. ne is the disclaimer say you you are not affiliated with the original company and that its for reference purposes. Or simply change it up. Since OCD is trademarked, see if it was ever labeled O.C.D or O CD or O C D. If they didn't trademark all the variances then your good.


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## zgrav (Oct 30, 2020)

I would shy away from claiming I was selling anything similarly branded "O.C.D." or similar marks just to avoid the appearance that you were misleading any buyers.  And why would anyone selling a solid clone want or need to do that?   Telling potential buyers that the pedal is "similar to" or "based on" the designs used in another named pedal, but that it is not endorsed by, affiliated with, thought kindly of by, or kept in the closet for comparison purposes by the other company should make it clear to anyone that there is no intent to deceive or misappropriate the intellectual property of that other company.   

It is understandable that Reverb wants to stay out of the disputes between the companies and the sellers to avoid the hassles and the possibility of being named as a co-defendant in any litigation.  But it sounds like Reverb just wants to get the product description modified without stopping the seller from posting the pedal for sale.  As noted in comments above, by and large a lot of the pedals we build are copies and variations of long-established designs, even when newer companies are making small changes and big claims to hype their own products.


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## Chas Grant (Oct 30, 2020)

What I was saying is "Similar to O.C.D" in the description. This way its not a trademark infringement of OCD. I'm not saying to pass it off as an OCD pedal at all. That would be wrong, mainly to the buyer. Me personally, I would make a current production pedal only for a friend or family, but an out of production pedal I would make and sell if someone wanted it, even an early version of a pedal that is no longer produced like a 1971 Big Muff or an OD1.


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## twebb6778 (Oct 30, 2020)

Some really good points here guys, thanks everyone for bringing your 2c to the table.
My builds did have a few value tweaks here and there, so I might take on some of your advice and go with "similar to O.C.D" in the description rather than saying it's an outright clone.


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## HamishR (Oct 31, 2020)

If there is an issue it could be argued that it is merely the fact that you mention the OCD which helps you sell your pedal. So even if you state clearly that it is not an OCD you are using the notoriety of the OCD to sell your pedal. This is how it has been explained to me.

I LOVE the BLM version! Brilliant. Especially with where the profits are going. Fab that a crappy design can do some good. Sorry - not a fan of the OCD.


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## Mcknib (Oct 31, 2020)

Call it an OCDC you may get old Angus messaging you! now that'd be cool 

The Angry Angus


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## yazooligan (Oct 31, 2020)

I know K Pedals sells a lot of stuff on Reverb. I'd love to hear their opinion on this.


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## Pimpoftheyear70 (Oct 31, 2020)

Play the game  !!! 

list it as a 'Sound alike " , " Work Alike " , " Compares too " 
OH CD 
Reword it until it its cool with Reverb . 

Mike Fuller ( Twat waffle )  Ha ha ha ha !!!!!   lol 
I don't normally get into bad mouthing guys like this , but there is plenty of info on the net on how this guy treats 
customers , employees etc etc .


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## Dali (Nov 1, 2020)

Maybe that one works?

_"This is not an OCD TM pedal, it's an Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder overdrive"_

Or:

_"I am not selling an OCD TM pedal, this is a [...]"_

So the search engine will still works.


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## Bobbyd67 (Nov 1, 2020)

Got the same thing happening to some of my listings too. Specialy the EQD stuff and my kliche overdrive most recently, l see GUP tech uses the "insert pedal name here" tribute, I dunno how well this work thought.

Also maybe it's just luck but I find that using just the pedal name and not the company tends to help but it's hard to say xD I feel like it's all in my head and pretty random how they detect brand-names :/


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## zgrav (Nov 1, 2020)

I like Dali's suggestion for the disclaimer, and then call the pedal whatever you want and describe what it does.   Looks like the OCD controls have common names on them so you should be OK having your controls use the same names.     Even put the disclaimer all in caps if you want to.   I don't see how anyone could then claim you were trying to misrepresent what you were offering.  

I would like to know how often this site gets any kind of push-back from the commercial pedal companies.  I gather there is some friendly discussion with some of them, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some less-friendly messaging every now and then.


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## ADAOCE (Nov 6, 2020)

Searching Facebook marketplace again and I found this being sold for $150. Now I don’t have an issue at all with this and if someone pays $150 instead of a used or new G4 then I think they’re silly but within their rights to do so. I do, however, think it’s a little disingenuous to sell this for that much and call it “expertly hand crafted” as the description says. Im not trying to snob on the crooked box caps, excess wire, goopy soldering or the crooked IC but hey at least they twisted those two wires and cleaned the board with IPA. Also if this is anyone on here not trying to be inflammatory I just think you should tamper your expectations. Unless you’re selling these like hot cakes and I’m wrong in which case my wife will be happy..


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## chongmagic (Nov 6, 2020)

I usually just sell so I can build more, not really to make any money.


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## coltonius (Nov 6, 2020)

Certain brands protect their trademarks more vigorously than others. Reverb pulled one of my OCD clones many years ago (Aion board before PedalPCB was a thing) and intimated that Fuller is a dick toward cloners. They spun the whole affair as protecting me from his wrath.

I have found you can't say "Harmonic Percolator" on Reverb either, neither can you use BJFE.. but in the latter case I think it was just Tony from PrimoFX being a dick because he has a grudge against me personally.


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## SYLV9ST9R (Nov 6, 2020)

chongmagic said:


> I usually just sell so I can build more, not really to make any money.


My thoughts exactly. I recently sold and Informant and a Pro-Filter, and now I'll build a Muroidea and a Pro-Filter as a 2-in -1 pedal ). And I sold my Arachnid to finance my Daisy seed and Terrarium...

Here's what I said for the informant build: 
"A clone of the 1981 Inventions DRV. It won't make your pedalboard instafamous, but if you like it's sound, you'll pay at least 200$ less than the cheaper I've seen online."  I didn't have any problem, but then again, it sold pretty fast.


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## Danbieranowski (Nov 6, 2020)

From an ethics perspective, I look at it like this. As long as I'm not intending to build a legitimate business off of someone else's hard work, I think it's okay. I've sold a handful of pedals since I started building, all of which were priced just to break myself even on my costs. Mostly, the person's desire was for custom artwork or a handmade feel. Otherwise, if I make stuff just to experiment and then it sits around, I'll just give it away to friends. If a company came to me and asked me not to build something, I wouldn't. But if that same company sells "their version" of a Tube Screamer, or a Fuzz Face, or whatever, I probably would let them know how I feel about their hypocrisy.


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