# Carbon Black Fuzz - To Vintage or Not to Vintage...



## Fingolfen (Oct 11, 2022)

So I've been looking at the EQD Black Ash / Carbon Black Fuzz. EQD even posted some pretty gut shots of the real thing on their website - looks like a couple paper in oil 0.1nF, axial 4.7uF, some sort of polymer/film 2n2uF, and a bunch of 1/2W carbon resistors.

... so has anyone ever built one up with vintage bits vs. modern? Any difference? Or do I need to do something "for science"?


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## mdc (Oct 11, 2022)

iirc there was a member here who did side-by-side mojo/modern builds with little-to-no difference.


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## Fingolfen (Oct 11, 2022)

mdc said:


> iirc there was a member here who did side-by-side mojo/modern builds with little-to-no difference.


I didn't see one with a quick search... let me go digging and see if I can find the thread.


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## Big Monk (Oct 11, 2022)

It can take everyone varying amounts of time to come to the ultimate conclusion that NOS/Crusty Dusty parts make no difference at all.


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## Fingolfen (Oct 11, 2022)

Big Monk said:


> It can take everyone varying amounts of time to come to the ultimate conclusion that NOS/Crusty Dusty parts make no difference at all.


But... but... MOJO...   Or, more likely slightly out of spec high capacitances... I do hear a slight difference between my "modern" Thagomizer and my "vintage" ones, but when I measure the tropical fish capacitors they tend to be a sneeze high...


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## benny_profane (Oct 11, 2022)

Carbon Black
					

Decked out with silly expensive components for your pleasure! :D  Not sure about those knobs just yet.




					forum.pedalpcb.com
				









						Carbon Black (again)
					

This time with regular components. If I find the time I’ll make a comparison video with this and the carbon comp/wima cap version.




					forum.pedalpcb.com
				




The EQD pedal used jellybean TO-92 transistors. Bit silly to use old stock everything but the component most folks go wild for. 

In any case, it’s a solid modded Si MKII. I think the tone control benefits from some tweaking though.


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## manfesto (Oct 11, 2022)

I love this quote from Brian Neunaber (of Neunaber Audio, and who I've just recently learned was the designer of the Belton Brick!):

"While music is art, audio is a science that is understood. It is not black magic."

Vintage "Mojo" is poor parts tolerance leading to distortions that may or may not sound subjectively better to a certain listener's ear, and for every unit that has 5 more "Mojo" points than an average "good" unit, there's another unit that has 5 fewer "Mojo" points than an average "good" unit.

If you build with NOS parts, you either a) build with what you have (like they would have back in the day) and are just as likely to build a unit with fewer "Mojo" points as one with more, or b) you're gonna measure the parts to make sure they're within tolerance, and at that point could have just built with modern components anyway.

(And I really like the stock "Top" control myself with my setup, doesn't do much to the overall character of the fuzz but it's more like a targeted presence control)


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## Big Monk (Oct 11, 2022)

Fingolfen said:


> ...but when I measure the tropical fish capacitors they tend to be a sneeze high...



Proper PR dictates you say these versions are "warmer" and more "organic"


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## Big Monk (Oct 11, 2022)

It stands to reason that in a world where a company like Vishay is making elegant and aesthetically pleasing < 1% tolerance MF resistors and, wait for it....1% Axial Film caps, that 60s engineers would bitch slap us if they found out we were using old drifted components to make circuits.


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## Harry Klippton (Oct 11, 2022)

The quest for "warmth" in guitar tones has always baffled me. It's like they don't want to be heard


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## benny_profane (Oct 11, 2022)

I think real engineers would laugh at anyone ascribing any sort of ‘magic’ or ‘mystical’ properties to electronics.

EDIT: To be clear, non-characterized specifications are not the same as ‘mystical’ characteristics. The former is certainly the case—as materials, construction, layout all affect a circuit. It’s just quite rare that some of the purported characteristics ever come into consideration with low-voltage pedals circuits.


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## benny_profane (Oct 11, 2022)

Harry Klippton said:


> The quest for "warmth" in guitar tones has always baffled me. It's like they don't want to be heard


+1 for scooped mids too.


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## Harry Klippton (Oct 11, 2022)

benny_profane said:


> +1 for scooped mids too.


Yeah I almost added that too. Solo practice tone and band tone are often not the same


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## RetiredUnit1 (Oct 11, 2022)

Carbon comp resistors are prone to cracking with age, and are prone to humming and buzzing.  Different capacitors do have a very large amount of difference in circuits with 400v.  I have a "foil end" tester that is simply a couple of alligator clips in the signal path with a switch to change the polarization.

Using it, you turn the amplifier on, and induce a noisy EM source like a motor or neon light.  When you switch back and forth the buzzing from the noisy EM becomes quieter when the foil end is on the side with the least amount of impedance.

It is almost impossible to determine the foil end on a paper in oil cap because they are so quiet.  Sozo's buzz like freaking crazy to the point that it's so noisy that it's hard to tell which side is the foil end.

Carbon film resistors have a warm tone extremely similar to  carbon comp but without the buzz and are used in signal paths where metal film are used in non signal paths.

Again, this is in extremely high voltage applications, not very low voltage applications.

I'm sure many of you have looked at gut shots of vintage amps, nuff said.  Those resistors and caps where used after extensive double blind tests for their tone, not their science.  

One of the 5E3's that I built was getting run away oscillation when I would turn the volume up.

When chop sticking it, hooked to an oscilloscope, I watched that wave form go from a box full of squiggly lines to a perfect wave when I moved one wire.  I could actually change the breakup on the amp by moving this one wire to different positions.  Which is probably why no two 5e3's have the same sound (and also since they don't have a NFB circuit.)  You can see the position of the blue wire that I settled on for the frequency response to my ears.

I have a friend that designs capacitors for the military for things she can't even tell me about.  The shape and material of the capacitor are used for various applications she can't tell me about.  If there were no difference between them she wouldn't not have a job that she can't tell me about. 

On the other end of the "vintage mojo" subject, I met Leo Fender when I was a teenager, he was talking to Les Tuttle who was my friends dad.  Les used to test Leo's designs and provide feedback since Leo didn't play guitar.  They grew up together as next door neighbors.  Leo was talking about how people were cloning his designs and even using the same cloth wire that he used.  He said "I only bought that crap because I got a zillion feet of it for practically nothing".


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## mdc (Oct 11, 2022)

benny_profane said:


> Carbon Black
> 
> 
> Decked out with silly expensive components for your pleasure! :D  Not sure about those knobs just yet.
> ...



3903s are out-of-production/old stock and I think their limited availability was the reason the black ash was a limited thing. If memory serves the ad copy rationale for the carbon resistors was along the lines of "since this was going to be limited we figured we'd put some other old junk in it too."


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## benny_profane (Oct 11, 2022)

mdc said:


> 3903s are out-of-production/old stock


The devices Jamie used were, or the part is EOL?



			https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Central-Semiconductor/2N3903-PBFREE?qs=u16ybLDytRYJvoee7rvU0w%3D%3D&mgh=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwqJSaBhBUEiwAg5W9p94aJuXtqjvYC6K409hS0hiz54cKj_8HB4_DC-XcHBgXG85YQXbrSRoCJxMQAvD_BwE


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## mdc (Oct 11, 2022)

It's entirely likely that I'm remembering incorrectly... I remember having to scrounge a bit to find the 3903s but that might just mean that neither Tayda nor my local surplus place had them.


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## benny_profane (Oct 11, 2022)

mdc said:


> It's entirely likely that I'm remembering incorrectly... I remember having to scrounge a bit to find the 3903s but that might just mean that Tayda didn't have them.


I think low-gain BJTs are just becoming more scarce across the board.


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## manfesto (Oct 11, 2022)

mdc said:


> 3903s are out-of-production/old stock and I think their limited availability was the reason the black ash was a limited thing. If memory serves the ad copy rationale for the carbon resistors was along the lines of "since this was going to be limited we figured we'd put some other old junk in it too."


"It uses a highly curated cache of rare and irreplaceable components including paper-in-oil capacitors and NOS half-watt carbon composition resistors from EQD President Jamie Stillman’s personal stash"

the transistors weren't the "scarce" part, the resistors and caps were, and not because the values are rare, just because they're old.


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## manfesto (Oct 11, 2022)

RetiredUnit1 said:


> Again, this is in extremely high voltage applications, not very low voltage applications.


Exactly, which makes the rationale of using CC resistors in guitar pedals snake oil.



> I'm sure many of you have looked at gut shots of vintage amps, nuff said. Those resistors and caps where used after extensive double blind tests for their tone, not their science.



"extensive double blind tests for their tone" IS science. Like, almost the definition of.

(and the odds are *very* high that once values were settled on, a *lot* of A/B testing was done between brand A and slightly-cheaper-brand B to determine if going with A made enough difference that going with it over B would be worth it. Because a solid chunk of engineering is building to cost.)

(and of course that's how modern amps and pedals are designed too, just with parts with significantly tighter tolerances leading to less variation when produced in high quantity.)


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## manfesto (Oct 11, 2022)

RetiredUnit1 said:


> I have a friend that designs capacitors for the military for things she can't even tell me about.  The shape and material of the capacitor are used for various applications she can't tell me about.  If there were no difference between them she wouldn't not have a job that she can't tell me about.


But those are clearly not the sorts of capacitors being used in audio circuits, much less bandwidth-limited audio circuits like guitar amps or pedals.

And again, she's doing *science* - she has a set of design requirements that she has to meet that are *way* stricter than anything anyone on this forum will ever dream of touching in a pedal. But I'm sure if she built a 4.7nF capacitor out of 100% unobtamnium and shaped like a donut, as long as it was within tolerance and you dropped it in a pedal, it'd sound the same.


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## manfesto (Oct 11, 2022)

RetiredUnit1 said:


> One of the 5E3's that I built was getting run away oscillation when I would turn the volume up.
> 
> When chop sticking it, hooked to an oscilloscope, I watched that wave form go from a box full of squiggly lines to a perfect wave when I moved one wire.  I could actually change the breakup on the amp by moving this one wire to different positions.  Which is probably why no two 5e3's have the same sound (and also since they don't have a NFB circuit.)  You can see the position of the blue wire that I settled on for the frequency response to my ears.


This is another thing about "mojo" stuff - it isn't a *good* thing that no two products from the same production run sound the same, at least not to the engineer who designed it.

If Leo Fender could have found a cheap and repeatable solution to make sure nobody had to ever-so-slightly move a blue wire to stop oscillation, he obviously would have (and clearly did, given subsequent designs not requiring that specific sort of tuning).

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There are artists, and there are artisans.

Artists make unique beautiful things. Artisans make beautiful things, consistently and en masse (anything from bread to microprocessors).

Engineers are artisans - to the degree that there is an "art" to their work, it is in the functionality of their design, the elegance with which they achieved it, and the repeatability with which they can continue to make it.

Leo Fender's "art" was the mass-producible bolt-on neck guitar, and years worth of tube amp designs that were hugely influential and that are still produced in some form today.

His "art" was *not* the blue wire you could shift around and basically break his design. That's the errant brush stroke on an early painting that he'd rather not be remembered by.

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Ivor Arbiter's "art" was unique distortion design he created using a 2-stage transistor amplifier with feedback.

His "art" was not the hours we hobbyists spend measuring germanium transistors and throwing them on breadboards trying to recreate the sweet spot of what he did.

We know this because, when given the chance, he did what any good engineer would do and switched to silicon transistors from germanium. Why? For their consistency.


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## HamishR (Oct 12, 2022)

When I build old-style amps like a 5E3 or a '68 Plexi clone I'm not interested in using out-of-spec NOS mojo parts like CC resistors. I use Carbon film resistors (metal film and wire-wound for the higher wattages), F+T electrolytics etc to build a great sounding long lasting amp with minimal need for repair. 

But I do often use Sozo caps and haven't found any problems with them. In fact my recent builds with them have been whisper-quiet. I am starting to use Mallory 150s a bit more, especially given how expensive Sozos are becoming! I like the Sozos mainly for the aesthetics - the do look good IMHO!  I pay a lot of attention to lead dress and in the past few years as I learn more I have been more attentive to things like capacitor outside foil direction so perhaps that is why my most recent builds have been quieter than ever? There have been a few times when I have accidentally left my latest 5E3 on overnight because it makes so little noise or hum that it's difficult to tell if it's on until you play something. It's something I'm quite proud of.


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## andare (Oct 13, 2022)

I thought Arbiter ripped off the Tone Bender 1.5!

I've been using carbon comp and carbon film resistors for my latest builds on turret board because they look cool and have thick, sturdy leads.
I'm under no illusion that they sound better or different. If anything, they probably raise the noise floor.


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## HamishR (Oct 13, 2022)

Carbon comps are likely to increase noise, if not at first then as the amp ages. But I've not had any noise issues with carbon films, despite what the experts say. I like carbon film for the regular resistors on the board. For anything which should be more than 1W I'll use metal film or wirewound  but carbon films are fine. I guess I don't build super high gain amps, so it's not a thing for me. Maybe if I started building Soldano style amps I would need to move to all metal film?


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## RetiredUnit1 (Oct 13, 2022)

manfesto said:


> Exactly, which makes the rationale of using CC resistors in guitar pedals snake oil.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Science is attempting to disprove your hypothesis by every means imaginable.  When you cannot disprove it, then it becomes theory.  Double blind testing is still subjective in that we humans are all the same and all different at the same time!


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## Chuck D. Bones (Nov 4, 2022)

Whatever EQD does, I question.   
Mojo parts sell pedals, which on its own is reason enough for pedal builders to use them.


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## Nostradoomus (Nov 4, 2022)

Oh hey old builds of mine, I made a pedal like that exactly once. Won’t bother again 😂


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